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[Wingnut]

Woah, yet another “Wingnut Chronicles”? Oh geez. The previous version… had nearly 1500 posts! Crazy!

So, is THIS the URL that pertains to this new forum?

What is Discourse?

Not exactly a heavily-inserted link on the new forum, eh? I actually had to do a web search, OMG. heh.

Ok, welcome to The Wingnut Chronicles… the never-ending talk-about-anything thread-from-hell. Mostly, we talk about BabylonJS, but in THIS thread… feel free to talk about your 3D whims and wishes, no matter how embarrassing or noob you might sound.

Rattle-on about anything… maybe someone will join-in, and perhaps (likely) your 3D hopes and dreams will inspire others. The world of 3D is wide-open, and we have THE BEST webGL library ANYWHERE. We also have a great community of helpers and super-hero techies.

You have arrived at a wonderful place… the shores of Lake Babylon. From here, it’s easy to fly! Dream as large as you wish. Your dreams might just come true.

[Deltakosh]

Ok now this is a Babylonjs forum:)

[Wingnut]

Thanks @Deltakosh, you’re always so kind to me… thank you! Working near you and your marvelous inventions… has been a complete pleasure, and an excellent learning experience. I hope it continues for many more years.

Ok, so, let’s talk busyness. Did ya’ll see the keyboard shortcuts? When not editing, just type a question mark.

There is also a choice for displaying hot keys… in the “hamburger” menu.

Discourse text-wrangling appears to be based on “Markdown”… which is also used in our documentation system. How nice is THAT, eh? Users who have never contributed to our documentation… due to fears of learning GitHub Markdown… can now play with Markdown a little bit every day… in their forum posts. Later, they will feel quite comfortable contributing to BabylonJS documentation and playground-based tutorials.

It will take some time and patience. For example… the hamburger link above… is a link to an image. I struggled to make it be a LINK, and not import/embed the image into post. I sort-of “manually” built the link. [some words](url/someImage.jpg). Still learning.

Open source! Discourse is OPEN SOURCE! That means… we’re free to fly. We can modify our forum… TONS, if we wish. That… is pretty sweet.

So far, I sort-of like the new joint! I think we can get some work (and play) done… 'round here. Let’s try to make sure that we have cleaned-up any loose-ends on the old forum. Helpers, if you have open issues, try not to let they or their issues… get neglected. This is a time of volatility, so a little extra effort… would be nice.

Control-z/undo, and add-link->fill URL field with url.jpg->CANCEL… needs a little investigation.

When trying to add the Hamburger link to the image… I saw that it had mistakenly “embeded” the image into the post. I pushed “cancel” on the make-link popup panel. That CANCEL did not undo the image embed. So I tried control-z to undo it. That failed, too. I needed to highlight & cut the Markdown debris from the post. After that, I built the link manually.

Okay, what should we try to break? Anyone got any diagrams of how this system is “assembled”? Is there some kind of config file… just for us? How about an “add-on modules” folder… just for us? Who has “the goods” on how to hack this puppy? Let’s write a simple “mod” to the forum… just to prove that we can. Anyone know how? Will you teach us? (thx).

Ahh, here it is. https://docs.discourse.org/ There’s the “meat and potatoes”. Yum!

[Deltakosh]

Discourse is full of wonders we will keep discover!
And yeah oss means we will be free to control our destiny!

CSS/HTML is pretty easy to update!

[Deltakosh]

I’ve just added a couple of themes you can pick from your profile parameters

[Deltakosh]

[Wingnut]

Coooooool.

Hey @Deltakosh… did you add that link-icon to docs… in upper right corner? That’s NICE. Thx!

How many icons can we put there? Know? Anything goes?

When we get a fresh upgrade of the forum software, will things be over-written? Probably easily avoided.

Anyway, I would like to see link-icons for main website, playground, github source repo, and possibly… github DOCS repo.

Too cluttered? Any icons you choose/draw… fine with me. Header is always black-background, no matter the theme (so far). SO, only one icon color needed, so far.

Perhaps keep lots of space between each icon, so the icon-bar works nice on mobiles… for fat-finger/thumb presses.

Sort of an SVG festival up there, eh? Live-generated? Icon generator can check whether light or dark theme, and draw icons (and header backgroundColor) in different colors/shapes… on-the-fly? Wow!

Maybe we should leave the header colors alone, for now, eh?

Ahh… HTML for GUI… so goooood. Our forum becomes an extension of our playground app.

<iframe id="two" width="100" height="100" frameborder="3" scrolling="no" src="http://playground.babylonjs.com"></iframe>

I tried to embed a playground in a post, as we can see. Fun! Domain needs white-listing, I think. I got an empty, bordered box-model. But, possibilities are numerous.

[Deltakosh]

So yes I added that icon:) I do not want to bloat the header though as I think it must stay easy to understand but we have the possibility to add more if we need it:)

I’ll check what can be done for iframes

[Wingnut]

nod thx. Yeah, I understand.

There’s some extra space at the bottom of the pancake menu. Errr… hamburger menu.

Future options, galore.

No hurry on iframe. Not overly useful. Just curiosity.

Wingy thinking about webGL user interface to entire forum. Likely, iframe is too isolated to allow events to arrive at forum event listeners. Probably need to teach the forum how to allow a canvas element within a post or at forum-system level.

Or instead… teach a BJS scene how to include a forum instance. Wowzers!

Markdown-to-GuiTextBlock converter/manager… v0.01 heh. Probably can only READ the forum from within BJS scene (and navigate-around the sub-forums). Likely, no posting… yet/ever.

Perhaps we should forbid raw html used within posts, so that later… we have less cleaning needed… in order to display a post with GUI textBlock.

[Deltakosh]

It works now

[Deltakosh]

How to:

<iframe src="https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/frame.html#AQRDKW#0" width="600" height="400">

[Deltakosh]

So far I only whitelisted playground domains. Other will not be that useful (like sandbox for instance )

[JCPalmer]

It would probably be a good idea to put this ‘how to’ on its own topic, pinned if that means anything here. If this topic goes long like the last iteration, this is going to be buried.

[nasimiasl]

hi I just wanna have here a post

[gryff]

Well, things have changed around here - but it has been awhile:)

Not sure I can contribute much any more as a lot of water seems to have passed under the bridge. I still have an interest but I think the forum has become about coding - and that is not my forte - and I grow old (second grandchild next April)

Right now though, I am trying to model some hair for political purposes (UK politics) - I shall see how that goes.

Am I correct that if you ping someone - an email gets sent to that person - I would prefer that not happen as my current email address has limited storage. Are there “settings” somewhere that can be adjusted?

cheers, gryff

[Wingnut]

Hi Naz! And Hi Gryff, long time no see.

@gryff… Not so much change, really. Forum decor and core bloat, mostly. Everyone is a bit wobbly from the move, and we’re still painting and hanging pictures, but, everyone still has that “let’s try to help” attitude. I still try comedy and fail most of the time. We sure miss YOU, though, @gryff … but it seemed that you became THE Blender expert (user side)… and that probably got old, eh?

We’re all still learning BJS, and 3D terminology/practices, and the new forum, and JS, and Math. We’re also learning the art of being kind/tactful/social in a high-intensity, drama-queening, somewhat angry-feeling real-world. That’s quite a pile on our plates. It seems we’re all on the edge of insanity, to some degree.

Me, I’m all about the feeling of empowerment and accomplishment that comes with using BJS/webGL, and the societal smiles which result. WebGL art crosses international borders BEAUTIFULLY, and I love that. That brings happiness and further playful curiosity (making adults become happy, playful kids, again).

---

Congrats on grandchild #2, G-man! I hope life is going ok for you.

---

A Wingnut Chronicles tradition... is to show cool playgrounds that are found with my playground detector... usually found at Lake Babylon's "Playground Park". So, here we go... a fantastic "micro" playground from @bghgary : https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#H4S8FE#0 Sweet! Should we (try-to) remove its animation and physics-it-up? Power it with applyForce and applyImpulse and joints and motors? (omg!)

---

PS: Gryff... you can click on your picture icon, then click the "gear" in the upper right. Lots of "personal profile" settings to tweak. Party on!

[Deltakosh]

Welcome back @gryff! I missed you

[Wingnut]

Hi gang. Here’s some Wingnut yapping about “smart paths” or something similar. It is a branch from this thread.

Think about a flying camera path/trajectory. There needs to be more than camera positioning along the path. The camera likely needs to aim-at various things as it travels the path. (Easing into/out-of camera.targets). The camera could bank, pitch, and yaw… like an airplane, both during path-turns AND during straight-runs. These things sometimes/often need easing.

And FOV might need to change along the way, and easing on THAT would be good, too. (same as scale for a path-following mesh)

Then path-travel speed, too. Watch a crop-dusting airplane. At the end of a run across the field, the aircraft does what? A chandelle? I think this would require that the path points EASE-into/out-of getting closer-together and further-apart (from each other). Short point-to-point “point-spans” would be needed to make a smooth, tight corner. But on longer, straight runs, 2-3 points spaced far-apart… is fine… if the throttle is set correctly. Basing the throttle on “points per second” is probably not a good idea, or maybe a user-select-able “option”.

For roller coasters, inertia and gravity cause the speed changes along the path, but with our physics-less mesh/camera paths, we might not have physics available. Thus, we need to accelerate and brake the speeds along the path… and they need to be eased. Ideally, the path itself carries the throttle information… somehow. The path itself becomes an actionManager/event-generator and uses observers, possibly intersect-with-infoNode related. Similar to railroad track sensors.

Recently, I questioned WHICH classes should be allowed to have metadata properties. This situation… is related because, we might need Vector3’s with metadata. Smart V3’s, which not only carry their location, but also info for the vehicle which traverses the path. Much like info-nodes buried in roadways… that cars can read as they pass them. Likely, we would make a special class for these smart path-points, if indeed this system would work at all.

Would we decrease path-travel speeds… by placing the path points closer together? Or would that be done with throttle values gotten from along-the-path info nodes? OR, at certain delta-times of the flight?

Continuing with this thought, it seems like these paths need two kinds of points. One kind… to plot the path thru space. Another kind for giving rotation, scaling, easing, and throttle settings… to the object traveling the path.

Manually flying a little airplane such as our crop duster… gives nice pathing, easing, banking, and throttling. Asking a path-editor/math formulas… to “grow” (derive) a similar path-plot and along-path-actions… seems a nightmare.

I think we need “normals” along the path, and that means that the path… might ACTUALLY be a BJS Ribbon.

Not sure. Wingnut babbling. Roller coaster climbing turns and crop-duster chandelles… ease the vehicle into a near-stop/stall, speed-wise. It seems… the path-plotting thru worldSpace… is ONE thing, and info-nodes ALONG that path… that the vehicle “reads” along the way… is ANOTHER thing. hmm.

Here’s another version of the roller-coaster… without attached camera. Imagine a sentence traveling that rail, much slower, among the bushes of a wooded VR/3D park, where young kids (their avatars) sit (hover) and learn to read. The sentences, words, and letters… can become alive… hopping, spinning, dancing, bumping into one-another, such a happy learn-to-read environment… or even a nice environment for reading the latest headlines. Yum!

Speaking of dancing fonts…

“Can ya tell me how to get… How to get-to Sesame Street?”

[droggam]

@Wingnut im not advanced like that but i checked ur rollercoaster…
I dont know the math in it like sinus etx
is there a better way to achieve this knowledge?

[Wingnut]

Hi D. I think it is @jerome’s roller-coaster playground… and I don’t understand the math (much), either. That is why we (I) talk, here. Perhaps we invent an easier way. Perhaps not.

I think… to be good path-tool inventors, we MUST learn Jerome’s methods.

I think that the roller-coaster demo is currently at maximum-easy… per the tools/inventions we now have.

Flight-paths are important to the future of 3D (camera and/or spacecraft auto-pilot/auto-landers). We will likely (hopefully) continue studying and testing more methods/spline-editors.

Thanks for your interest! You ask a good question… with no answer, yet.

[droggam]

wingnut i understand I havnt dug into deep formulas at all, so far but i was wondering cuz i have plenty of ideas,… but i usually follow the forum posts cuz i like learning all the basics.
I was playing with fire and such all that i think is interesting so far.
cheers

[gryff]

From @Wingnut

PS: Gryff… you can click on your picture icon, then click the “gear” in the upper right. Lots of “personal profile” settings to tweak. Party on!

Well I went investigating - but no changes. First off, all the “stars” - I feel like some of the kids one of my daughter teaches - stars for first emoji, first edit, first user mention - my fridge door is not that big

However, for some reason I did receive and email copy of your above post … but … er … the original version with no edits

How is the band by the way?

cheers, gryff

[Wingnut]

Hi G. Yeah, there are plenty of “badges”, eh? Just like the Boy Scouts. I got my “starting a forum fire by rubbing two sticks together” -badge… just last week. I’m SO proud. heh.

Gryff: “my fridge door is not that big” hahah. You’re SO friggin’ funny!!! Do these youngsters even KNOW about decorative fridge magnets and the ego significance of macaroni art and coloring book pages? i doubt it. Yep, that’s back when earn’n’deserve systems didn’t cause so many societal inequality problems.

Notice that there are TWO reply buttons beneath each post. One is a POST reply, and the other… a TOPIC reply. At first, I thought there was a separate notification… for when YOUR POST was replied-to, even if you didn’t start the topic. But under further investigation, that seems to be untrue.

It’s based-upon if your post was LIKED, instead. Perhaps there is two layers of “track”. ONE where you track all posts to a topic, and the other where you track ONLY replies to YOUR POSTS… within a topic (directed replies - directed at you).

I’m still learning. There’s bound to be some momentary pain when learning new things. And, it’s easy for old people like me… to become “crotchety”, you know. I suppose it comes-from too many years of us-them wars. We get “fried”.

I deleted a big long post here… “toward” you, as you likely know. You got to read it before I deleted it (I saw your LIKE on it). The topic felt a little personal, and there weren’t any comments to/about it… rolling-in. (just some Wingnut yammering).

I was “fried” on the Invision (old forum) editor. Other than the colors, it was reasonably annoying. But it DID let me type *sigh* easier than THIS editor does.

I like the text editor here… better than Invision’s (old forum). The old one had cursor-key failures and needed shifted-returns to get single CRLF’s. Easier to make a post look pretty, here, EXCEPT… no text colors allowed in the Discourse editor. Allowing colored text would likely screw-with the light/dark themes… allowing users to accidentally make some text… invisible, in certain themes/styles.

---

I really like the allowing-of SOME html… inside a post. I find <hr> pretty handy, as ANY long-poster would. But there are some slow-to-learn rules about “insert a blank line before” and “on a line of its own” that apply to using HTML, Markdown, and BBcode in posts. I haven’t learned the fine details, yet. Those rules have likely ‘migrated-in’ from rules of Markdown and BBcode… two editor-allowed formats.

I wonder if I/we need a new docs webpage/markdown-markup. Perhaps… “Discourse Tutorial for Crotchety Old Geezers”? We really don’t teach any Discourse features, we just bitch about them (and about youngsters with zero horse-sense). heh.

(Wingy oils-up the hinges on his “geezer vent”, making sure it is ready for purse-dumping and drama-queening ops).

[gryff]

@Wingnut

Perhaps… “Discourse Tutorial for Crotchety Old Geezers”? We really don’t teach any Discourse features, we just bitch about them (and about youngsters with zero horse-sense). heh.

Funny Wingy, I just spent the day with my two year old grand daughter and I showed her @abhivaidya 's Christmas scene. We had a great time as she danced with Santa and pointed at the snowflakes. Later in the day, she insisted on seeing it again. Now she is a real youngster - and had a really great time. See my new comment on that thread.

It took me back to my days of VRML when I received an email from a lady in Hawaii about the fun her daughter had had with a “dress up doll” piece of VRML that I had created.

With 3D, perhaps it is all in the “eye of the beholder” - and young folk see it with a different eye

But then being “crotchety” is what old folks like me are supposed to be

cheers, gryff

[Deltakosh]

Eye of the beholder…this reminds me so good old memories

[Wingnut]

@gryff - Know that I wasn’t implying that you are crotchety. But I know that I CAN BE SO, at times. Yep, it’s our (my) job, these days.

It is easy to “get caught-up” in the happiness of children, and to feel the same happiness. (happiness is ‘infectious’).

This can also happen worldwide, with adults… as soon as we quit competing. It would help if we eliminated ALL borders/fences/walls, too. Just look at a picture of Earth, from space-view. It is easy to “feel” that we are ALL members of the same family… called… The Earthlings.

Story: Once upon a time, I noticed that MY feelings toward life… CHANGED… whenever I saw another person… having fun, feeling good, and/or celebrating. I think that’s why the TV show Candid Camera was a success.

I did some further experiments, after I saw a motorist driving on a highway… going “rhythm-crazy” (nearly dance-driving) because of the music he was listening-to. This “party animal” had his head rocking side-to-side, to the beat of the music… as he drove. It made me want to join him, and ask how/why he became so happy.

Now, I experiment often… with violently-rocking my head side-to-side (easy to see head silhouette from a distance)… while I drive and sing or listen to the radio… on the road. I travel a bit slower than the speed limit, so I get passed by people who have been following… watching my head rock and steering-wheel drumming.

They ALWAYS look at me, smiling, as they pass. They get “caught-up” in my party-animal gestures. It is darned fun, but it hurts my neck after a while. I’m thinking about inventing a passenger-side artificial super-model robot… with lots of super-model hair to shake. Simulated Car-Riding Party-Animal Girlfriend… version 1.0.

I went-on to do more experiments and do more observations. i heavily-observed sports… noticing WHEN/NOT teams celebrated each others’ victories, or helped an opposing player stand-up, after falling… things like that.

There’s lots to be learned… about sharing (and sharing credit-for) happiness/great-moments/successes. When stress stays low, our forum members and fans get-caught-up in the fun of BJS and its creations. Sometimes, BJS stress is high… when users are trying to use BJS to “make a living”. Sometimes, these folks are hurried and demanding, which is understandable, but still unfortunate.

Lately, it seems that The Earthlings are indeed “getting caught-up” in the emotions of others, but those emotions are rarely happiness… unless your favorite sports team was victorious and totally destroyed the enemy. (blood-lust / blood-sport)

Enough philosophy, eh? Ok, I’ll bring it back on-topic. Umm… I wonder if the Earth uses Euler rotation or Quaternion rotation. hmm. heh. How’s that?

[droggam]

I used quaternion today to swing a sword its very cool wingnut, havnt tried eulers yet
I kind of try different stuff but when u crack the code its so rewarding =)
and also just try to edit and code in playground somewhat its
performance beats my localhost app setup and practise on changing pivot points in blender so everything get the right angle =)

[nasimiasl]

i need hattory hanzo sward :MMM and i make some action too
that is good challange
new generation is beginning

[Wingnut]

For those who are confused, HH sword.

Very sharp metal. Maybe safer to set pivotPoint on TIP of sword, and hit things with handle/hilt.

Just bruises, no blood.

Hey @nasimiasl… will you use a NEW TYPE of “smart path” (like the roller coaster path)… for the fancy sword actions (sword paths)?

Super-Spline, version 1.0?

OH WAIT… of course… you built ShaderBuilder, and GeoBuilder, and next… SplineBender… err… SplineBuilder. You bet. PARTY!!!

[nasimiasl]

Hey @nasimiasl… will you use a NEW TYPE of “smart path” (like the roller coaster path)… for the fancy sword actions (sword paths)?

exactly
but i start make sward geometry that have own path with special shader

[nasimiasl]

step 1 : katana model is ready .
https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#CSZYEP#30

full design by GeometryBuilder

[Wingnut]

Absolutely beautiful, @nasimiasl. You’re a God!

[JohnK]

Wow!!

[nasimiasl]

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#CSZYEP#34

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/frame#CSZYEP#36

if we have speed parameter you can use that for hide or show
https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#CSZYEP#37

[Wingnut]

Nice stuff, Naz! Unreal.

Ok, back to aimless Wingnut yammering for a moment.

Did something happen with JS “collections”, recently? I have seen the “collections” term pop-up in some github source comments, and I saw @JCPalmer say “Layers to Collections (tabled)” in another post (which sounded very “modular” to me, and made my left nipple erect).

Do we have JS Collections, these days? Who knows “the scoop”?

Aren’t ya glad that they/we didn’t use the old “Vector” term, instead of “Collection”? We, here in 3D land… have PLENTY of “vector” terminology to deal-with, already.

[gryff]

@Wingnut wrote above:

I have seen the “collections” term pop-up

That word “collections” is rapidly becoming a naughty word around my desk as I struggle to understand what Blender 2.80 is trying to accomplish with the use of them. And I’m not getting much help over at the Blender forum.

But then, “some days are diamonds, some days are stone”

cheers, gryff

[JCPalmer]

If not obvious from gryff’s response, this is Blender terminology, new in 2.80 that I don’t quite know what to do about yet.

[Wingnut]

Ahh, thanks, guys! View Layers and Collections — Blender Developers Blog (a little intro for the curious)

[Wingnut]

Hi gang. On a different subject, I learned that cones with bottom diameter of 0… don’t light their bottoms… with hemisphericLight.groundColor settings.

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#HH1U5#91

(toggle lines 15/16)

I’m thinking it should be an adjustment to the light, not an adjustment to the cylinder/cone mesh. (if possible)

Should we think about an epsilon value (micro-value), somewhere? Thoughts, anyone?

[aFalcon]

Glad to see Wingnut Chronicles back. : )

[Wingnut]

Hi gang.
New experiment… flying the camera on a path3d… based upon our cool car path snippet.

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1YD970#53
(#51 for a wider view)

Kind of smooth and nice. Perhaps could use some lens flares.

Box (which you can’t see in PG #53 because camera is sitting atop it) does not tilt up/down when traveling up/down hills, yet. It doesn’t steer-down path very well anymore, either. (not as well as snippet car)

Just goofin’ around, as usual. I love the smoothness of this path generation math.

Later, I’ll re-flatten the path, bring-up the speeds again (reduce points)… and hang a physics joint beneath the “carBody”. Then attach a mesh and camera to the bottom of that joint. (pendulum)

With just the right speed, gravity, mass, and joint axis length, we should see some camera “banking” on the corners. Bobsled-track-ish.

[Wingnut]

On a new and weird subject…

I wonder… how many labor-hours… have been lost… because…

When using Internet Explorer–>Help–>About Internet Explorer …

… we can’t highlight/copy the version number.

We have some MS employees laying around here, right? Perhaps you guys can put a little pressure on the IE dev division… and make that version number be easy-copy, somehow?

Just tell 'em that Wingnut wants this fixed… right now. They will surely jump to your orders with a “Right away, sir/madam”. (yeeeeah, right)

[Wingnut]

Hi gang!

Weird forum-software subject: Has anyone noticed that… when you edit one of your previous forum posts, the forum lists that post at the TOP of its “latest posts in this sub-forum” list?

In other words, when you edit a post, it bumps it to the top of the list.

I don’t know if this is good/wanted. Hey Discourse experts… is this adjustable? Know? If so, should we?

I edit quite a few posts… sometimes WEEKS after first-posting them. I don’t want folks to re-read the post after the minor edit (because it went to the top of the “latest posts” list).

Sometimes, I simply fix the spelling on one word. Then it looks like a NEW POST to other readers.

Thoughts, anyone? thx.

Update I learned that moderators can use the “reset bump date” option… to keep an edited post from jumping to the top of the forum lists. hmm. Interesting.

[droggam]

HI wingnut…
hi wingnut…
I was thinking to start a new language apart from js…
so my choices is btw Java to android and c# in unity…
Idk what to pick both seems like not fun to learn c# has 100 different types and
java idk.
but i dont want to be limited by only javascript what languages do u do?
I looked at ur “simple” path 3d also it looks cool but i dont understand the math is the sinus making
the points end and start to connect into a forever loop?

[Wingnut]

Hi drogs!

I like JS better than anything… but it has some limits. Only a few of those limits… block me from things.

I have done SOME Java, some 6510 assembly (C-64), some REXX, and much LambdaCore MOO code, whatever that is called. My suggestion to you… perhaps Python. It seems to have WIDE support and popularity.

---

On the path-math, yeah, I agree... I have not studied it well. I have barely begun experimenting with that.

To move toward “smart-path”… perhaps each point in the path… needs a transformNode added… to cause each path-point… to have a “normal” and a transformation. As the camera moves-along the path… it also ANIMATES its rotation… from currentPathPointTransform… to nextPathPointTransform.

This will cause the camera to turn-toward various targets, or bank like an airplane when going around corners, etc. Other motion might be possible, too… IF we put SOME “data” (other than position) in the path-points.

Smart path-points. For now, we can overload the vector3-class path-points… by simply adding a point.transformNode = new BABYLON.TransformNode() to each path-point.

How to SET all the pathPoint.transformNode values… to create nicely-eased camera target-turns (without camera.lockedTarget) and banking on corners… I have NO IDEA. heh. Still thinking. Thoughts?

[droggam]

haha… me and my thoughts… yeah maybe a for loop to add data to every “point”
everypoint just represent a point an camera angle…
you dont even have to use the same array of points as long as they contain the same number of points and time pass btw points… but im not an expert wingnut.
and change camera angle in quaternion or radians watever float the boat… in registerbefore render loop somehow. so when point[100] camera animation change to that but idk its probably not working but if its an animation loop…

Im not advanced yet… but i always try keep it simple.
And i love javascript too… its my first language I just read about android games.
and there is two possibilities to go with android studio and java
or unity c# to natively export to android…
but I dont know i have tons of fun with babylonjs…
it just lacks a bit of jobs opportunities and i guess i need be more well rounded =)

[Wingnut]

Yeah, your “point” is well-taken. The smart-path is very near-to standard camera animation techniques.

hmm. Animation interpolations are quite similar to our path-math.

Programming as a job? Blech. That would ruin the fun, imho. I’m retired now, but my career of selling weed to children… rarely bothered my programming fun. (just kidding, of course).

If I were young again, I think I would design/build a custom graffiti-removal truck (20 year bank note), computerized… water-jet, chem-jet, sand-blast on a long boom… cameras… all work done in comfort of truck cab, and often quite automated. Plenty of time to code games in the “office” of the truck… while a removal is in-progress.

Of course, the truck and its robotic arm… freely run JS, and its cameras use BJS-based Augmented Reality.

[droggam]

that was funny wingnut im on to u =)))
jk but its good point that shit get automated and a chore if its work
but that is the risk of any job
imo
I love code its intriguing and captivating
yes keep doing hard 3d path work wingnut
its not impossible must be a sollution

[JohnK]

A bit of path work here Positioning, Rotating, Scaling - Babylon.js Documentation
Need to move camera to see 3D of paths. Would be interesting to see the way a cone moves along rather than a plane.

[Wingnut]

Oh YEAH!!! Nice! I like the 4th one… best. The plane stays orthoganous to the tobogganous. Thx John! Good link.

Tangents, normals, biNormals, just YUM! You’re a God, JK! A friggin’ Level 7 PathMaster!

[aFalcon]

Animated camera is a favorite topic. Want to combine it with movement zones, when back from appwastelands.

Like the orthoganousness.

[droggam]

tobogganous…hmmm John u too good for us mortals.=)
very cool it looks like rollercoaster could be like if i had one!
Whats the secret to know all that… i wonder sometimes

[Wingnut]

Well, I haven’t posted here in a long while… been out arguing with everything including myself. How’s it going, readers? Are ya’ll building every 3D thing you ever dreamed-about? Yeah? Gooood.

Other than Oimo work, I’ve been thinking about GUI, lately. In a recent playground series, I have been testing a thing I call “cach flow”. It is a diagram that I “imagined-up”… from a user question. That’s irrelevant. The first nice-working version… is this #14 PG. It got a bunch of engine.onResizeObservable additions from a forum friend/helper, and now it does quite well when canvas size changes. I like it.

I went-on to do more torturing in pg #15… sliding-around the advancedDynamicTexture (master/root full-screen GUI container), to see how well my diagram held-up. Pretty ugly.

I needed to clean-up my hard-coded positions, and use more “derived” positions. Pg #16 does a pretty good job… except for ‘target’.

Target… is a little ellipse defined at line 55. It hangs-out at the intersection of Eastwest Blvd, and Northsouth Av. It… is still having problems with its position during the slides. Help/ideas welcome, there.

---

On a completely different subject (except for the similarities), I was thinking about grids of grids… of grids… of grids… the making of HIGHLY DETAILED dashboards/control-panels. We’re talking tiny LED indicator lights and micro switches, and readouts, and little radar view, and little infrared view, and knobs, and widgets, and labels, and doohickies… till ya vomit! Something that just COULD NEVER EVER be operated on a mobile device… at least not without a needle-like stylus.

I’m thinkin’ … 200 controls on a half-screen-height dashboard (some controls are little LED’s that only change color and don’t need clicking/sliding.) All within grids of grids of grids. Would a guy need a manager? Could we get syntax such as… adt.radar.range.sensitivity.autoswitch = true? Kind of “Fluent”-ish? I dunno… I barely know what Fluent is about.

Could a “manager” assist us “dashmasters” with building custom observers that “bind” switch.value… to its switch.indicatorLight.value? Sort of a “back side of the panel” binding/patching? A special kind of notifyListeners… super easy to patch-together… thanks to the manager’s “patch panel”? Wow! Perhaps not apropos, because switch needs an onChange handler ANYWAY. Just toggle its indicator light… within there. I suppose the indicator light could be a member of the switch’s onChange notifyList. Sounds sane and logical.

Complex Grid Manager v.01 hmm. Who will invent the manager that creates our first ever complex dashboard-o-micro-controls? C’mon, ya KNOW ya want to build it. I think @Deltakosh? still holds the record for most controls on a single adt… https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#WZZDNR#7

Lookups might matter… but maybe we have an ADT.getControlByName() feature… already active.

What if… the grid/cells can stretch beyond idealWidth and idealHeight… but the controls within the grid-cells… don’t stretch. hmm. Rough area of town. Rubbery canvas size… sucks, eh? It makes a person wonder if .thickness can accept micro-percentages (so borders get thinner/thicker with scalings).

What’s that? It didn’t make you wonder about that… at all? uhn.

Ok, that’s enough Wingnut blabbering for now. Party on! Stay orthoganous to your tobogganous!

[Deltakosh]

I think @Deltakosh? still holds the record for most controls on a single adt

That’s a record I’m proud of

[Rah]

id like to see this, is it a playground?

[Deltakosh]

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#WZZDNR#7

[Rah]

Woahhhhh Awesome!

[Wingnut]

It rocks, huh? Yeah boy. Best “Particles Lab”… ever.

So, @Rah… seeing that YOU caused the 3 unnecessary posts to The Wingnut Chronicles (I already included the URL to that playground… in post #53)… you get to code the advancedTexture.getAllControls(includeChildren->true/false).length … to see if @deltakosh is over 100 controls. I think he is. I’m guessing… 125.

C’mon Rah… hurry-up with that JS one-liner or however you decide… to get us a total count on how many controls were used. I’m hungry… it’s lunch time, but I’ll wait until you have that number for us. Hurry.

11 hours later: I’m starving, Rah!
22 hours later: Buzzards are pecking my entrails!

[Rah]

You mean 3 Very important and extremly necessary posts?

Also i can take a look at that after class

[Wingnut]

I’m just having fun with you, of course.

A quick-look at the AdvancedDynamicTexture API… shows… this.

Yep, deltadawn already built a tool for us (DK always writes systems with ‘essential tools’, often successfully predicting user’s needs. Considerate and Hot.)

So… I already know how many controls were used, and I/we didn’t need to write any code at all.

How many? I ain’t tellin’. Go insert a line of code into pg #7 and find out, readers. I WILL say… that my 125 estimate… was too low.

-18 F here this morn, and i really need to do some snow-blowing. brrrr. Does anyone think my 25 year old Toro snowblower will start/operate in these temps? What about Wingnut’s body? Can he handle 45 mins in his spacewalker’s suit, to get the job done? What will break? It’s SO cold.

I’m scared. Someone HOLD me!

Update: After warming the starter rope pulley for 15 mins with a pistol-style hair dryer, the Toro started 1st pull, and kicked butt on the neighborhood snowdrifts and street-plow banks! And I didn’t get frostbite, or frosted bytes. yay! My cross-street neighbor FINALLY got his Ariens-brand blower started, but it needed to be zapped with the defibrillator about 100 times. pfft. Obviously, I’m the top-dog blower on THIS block.

Here’s some getDescendents(true, someFunc) predicate fun!

Then set line 515 to true, and add a little adt rootCon rotation… phew. I’m so dizzy.

[SometimesIMakeThings]

That’s good to hear! Frosted bytes
I can barely stand when it starts hovering around 70 F here in California, I’d never be able to live over there!

@Rah Beat ya to it! 168 controls, that’s incredible! I don’t think that record is going anywhere any time soon

[TheLeftover]

Hey Wingnut, lil’ help please.
A young woman is having a birthday. I asked what to get her. I was told, “something with her name on it”. So I got a domain shilpi.rocks and made this playground. https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#XWVXN9#75

Wondering if you could help me tune it just a bit . . . A little brighter and the motion reduced by 80% or so.

. . . please . . . .

[Wingnut]

Hi TL! Glad to do it.

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#XWVXN9#76

Brightness:
Line 120 refTexture.level can adjust texture “intensity” but I’m not sure that is “brighter”. Possibly lighting increase needed, and possibly a different texture.

Animation:
All the animation happens in lines 155-182. In the original, I used one ‘addInPlace’ for position anim, and another for rotation anim. This one… has the position anim disabled, and TWO rotation addInPlaces… one doing Y (lines 168-172), another doing X (lines 174-178).

This is simple animation, but understand that EACH addInPlace could have its OWN timeline, its own step, and its own softener(s). And remember that you could do softener*2 or step/2 (or similar stuff) in any addInPlace section.

Lines 163, 170, 177… they are each vector3’s to be added-In-Place each frame, and they are essentially the “change since last frame” (sometimes called the ‘delta’).

And, you know sin and cos are cyclers… essentially back-n-forth oscillators. You can think of sin as ONE bike pedal, and cos as the other.

Step is VERY important. Often, when you adjust step, you need to adjust other things, too. Step adjusts both speed and amount of effect. So, sometimes we adjust the speed of the animation, but then the amount of movement becomes too little or big, so the softeners need re-adjusting.

Softeners (attenuators) can be used as amplifiers, too… depending upon if you use them as a divisor or a multiplicand. (What the hell did he say?) (ie. You can sometimes divide-by softener, and sometimes multiply-by softener). I probably should have named it ‘scaler’ or ‘range’ or something like that.

And, camera angle is also important, esp .beta (the 1.8 seen in line 12).

This reflection version is still looking directly at the “pole” of the texture. You can see the texture’s pole… pass vertically thru the letter surfaces… twice per anim cycle… once going up, once going down.

If you would like to NOT see the texture pole pass thru the fonts, adjust that camera beta… OR… you can do what I did in the old forum post… where we changed line 91 ‘xyz’ into ‘zyx’. That might work.

Do you see how you could eliminate the 2nd rotation anim… by replacing the first zero in line 170… with the (Math.sin(timeline)/softener) from line 177? (add/remove parentheses as wanted). Then, line 170 would be animating both X and Y, and then lines 173-178 could be removed.

I turned OFF position animator… because… it gets to be too much, and also… it needs to be programmed more carefully than I have done, so far. Up in that section (lines 164/165)… you can see that I used the ‘i’ indexer variable in some of the calcs. That… is weird… and can have strange effects. Generally speaking, when using the i-indexer in calcs, left-most letters get little effect, right-most letters get LOTS of effect. This is not an overly-useful movement and can make words difficult to read.

Ok, I hope this helps. You should have some tools to cause trouble-with, now. Don’t accidentally blow-up the planet. Perhaps someday, we will add pre-made MeshWriter “animation behaviors” that can be applied to a single letter, a single word, a single sentence, or an entire message. I am also hoping to apply path-following, soon, and have begun studies on paths. I’ve tested only camera-flying and single object-flying, so far. Thx to @JohnK and others… for helping me learn about paths.

This young birthday gal… umm… is she a California Girl? hmm. Can she… Does she… Would she… ahhh, never-mind. She wouldn’t know how to operate a snowblower.

[Wingnut]

Hey TL… in this “reflection-texture” application (chrome fonts)… do you see why (blocky?) fonts with LOTS of surface area, work best? Yeah, sometimes “fat fonts” are difficult to read, because their “holes and slots” are small… but, if we could somehow activate one more set of fonts… big fat mamas… that would be great. The more surface area of the font faces, the better chance that the viewer can “make out” what the reflection texture is showing.

Let’s say the texture is a pano of the greater metro El Segundo skyline. The more surface area on the fonts, the more chance that viewers will recognize it as El Segundo… because more of the picture will be seen in the font faces.

HOW IMPORTANT is it… that viewers recognize the reflected picture? I dunno. Depends upon the programmer/artist… and what is trying to be communicated, I guess. Brick patterns… easily recognized. “Where’s Waldo/Wally” pictures… perhaps more important.

It takes a long time to tweak a fontFamily into being MeshWriter-tolerable, doesn’t it?

For those who don’t know, @TheLeftover is the original coder of the MeshWriter fonts/system… used in that demo. Attaboy to @jerome, too, for creating the Solid Particle System (SPS) used in MeshWriter ops. I think MeshWriter/similar… has a HUGE future… for reading ANYTHING while-within a virtual reality scene.

GUI textBlock controls have usage in VR, too… but there’s nothing prettier than 3D fonts, and they can do physics/collisions, can have on-font textures, be used as particle emitters, and they can pirouette. GUI textBlock controls will shatter, if they try a pirouette.

And for teaching kids to read, there’s NOTHING like dancing fonts/words… keeps them wanting more and more sentences to pass-by.

Perhaps a pretty forest scene with text-paths winding out of the brush… passing-alongside the campfire. Kids would sit and read for HOURS and HOURS and HOURS. Pictures dance-by, among the words. 3D characters… too… “I’m a cone”… “I’m a parallelogram”… so much goooood stuff… to babysit those annoying kids-with. heh.

Parades. Sentence parades, newsfeed parades, mesh parades, sprite parades, anything that can follow a path… can be paraded. Everyone loves parades. Does anyone know what a Kerbal… is? How about Trolls? We need some cutesy 3D characters… tractors, lawnmowers, train locomotives, things that can path-pull a parade of MeshWriter words and assorted happy-stuff. Maybe some particle emitters to spray confetti, and maybe a little John Phillips Sousa marching music (calliope/bandwagon), etc. SO coooooool.

Parade Manager 1.0. “Path-Wrangling and Media-Herding… done right.”

[TheLeftover]

Well, the letters will always be flat on top, right? I make shapes in two dimensions and then it gets extruded, or whatever. That is the basic algorithm.

For my uses, I never notice. It is absolutely the most noticed when one does super-fat letters with a reflective texture. (hmmm . . . ) I remember looking at curving the 3rd dimension . . . and getting mental vapor lock. I am pretty sure it is beyond me unless I can get Archimedes in here to write that part of the code.

The two dimensions that are curved, are approximated, of course. The number of faces in a curve (say the outside of a ‘0’) is a function of a value embedded in the code and the way the font was originally written. The default value was intended to be pretty economical but look OK. I could incorporate a dialer to tune that to a couple different settings.

Yes. Putting a new font in MeshWriter is laborious. So is writing tools to speed font conversion. If we were producing more fonts, I would gradually tune up the tools – I thought.

I have zero information on usage. I am unaware of anyone taking anything to users using MeshWriter, besides me. (I will say this, there are frequent visits to the playgrounds you created that sport MeshWriter. I know this because they all source from my server.) I would expect that, if there was much usage (other than my friend Wingnut) I would hear about some deficiencies.

[Wingnut]

Yeah, like these, for example.

Little slots, little holes, lots of facial surface area. Super easy to see the image inside the fonts, but not very easy to read the words, unfortunately. Trade-off.

There’s probably 3-6 different font widths… involved in that font family. Compare the “I” to the “N”. 3 times wider? Maybe more? Might be a challenge to do auto-kerning, but boundingBox.extends.x might be able to measure each SPS-based character-mesh, and do the auto-kern. (for those in question, kern = letter-spacing, or X-spacing)

Those fonts are perhaps a little TOO “plump”, but you get the idea. Notice how the fonts are somewhat narrow, too, allowing them to be tightly kerned. These are all caps, so no descenders… allowing tight vertical stacking of words, too (line-spacing). Love it.

Later, we’ll actually run a movie inside the fonts. Wha-da-ya-think? Blazing Saddles? Top Secret?

what video inside fonts looks-like

[droggam]

Its top-secret wingnut just stop doing secret projects =)

[Wingnut]

Ok, continuing from message #49… I used @JohnK’s #4 example from the path demo (line 69 formula)… in my other path demo… which we COULD call “The OT” (orthoganous tobogganous). Let’s have a look:

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1YD970#55 (line 131 uses line 69 orthoganator formula) (disable line 105 to detach cam from car) (increase points in line 87… to slow the travel speed)

Just like Jerome’s rollercoaster, our “car” is staying reasonably heads-up (not much roll), while doing proper pitching and yawing to follow the path.

And just like Jerome’s rollercoaster, we have a “glitch” at one point in the track, probably where path-end meets path-start. hmm.

Draw Curves - Babylon.js Documentation (scroll down tiny bit)

While touring-around in Path3D docs and assorted related docs, I find this “Playground Example - Closed Joined Curves”.

That path has one SEVERE-angle place, and one pretty good bump… both along the upper right side… so I dunno if THAT method of closed-loop path-growing… is any different/better than what has been tried, so far.

I was just looking for a better “tie” point. (seam where start meets end). If we’re going to run a monorail system… we need good seams and smooth rail. MeshWriter fonts would get motion-sick when they hit that bump in the rail. And you KNOW those MeshWriter fonts - they BITCH about EVERYTHING. heh. If they don’t get a smooth ride along a path… we’re going to “hear about it.”

I wonder what that “glitch” is. Quaternion spaz-out? Perhaps a bump where the rail was soldered/welded? Are we missing a path-point, and thus have a “gap” to jump?

Let’s do some more experiments. Here is a showNormals helper, or maybe better for us, a showBinormals helper.

Yep, I see an issue. Abnormal normals at the border. hmm. A wall will likely NOT improve anything. Being a PathMaster is more complex than I first imagined.

[JohnK]

As usual I like to simplify things so I can see what is going on, so goodbye skybox, extra meshes and the camera following the carBody and back to a plane for the carBody rather than a box. Also have cloned the carBody at its start position.
https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1YD970#59
You can see that when the carBody approaches the end to restart its has rotated itself around the path. Checking out the console you can see that the final and first tangents are the same but not the normals and binormals. This will be down to the chooses made on how the normals and binormals are calculated going around the path and given for any point on the path there are an infinite number of vectors that can be chosen as a normal to the path the selection of a good method for a closed path is difficult. Will have another look to morrow.

[Wingnut]

the final and first tangents are the same

Hi JK, thx for the response. I am not seeing that to be true, at console.

T
Object { x: 0.4448, y: 0.8858, z: 0.1314 }
Object { x: 0.4383, y: 0.8882, z: 0.1376 }

#60 pg has tangents start/end diff subtraction, and console log.

diff { x: 0.006593511346865366, y: -0.0023379251690160974, z: -0.006228536602425533 }

(Oddly, though, I THOUGHT I DID see them be identical numbers… ONCE. I could not make them be identical again, even after fresh re-loads. Maybe I hallucinated it.)

---

One more show-normals version: pg #62 I also played-with line 112 raw property. Improper usage. Better usage:

var path3d = new BABYLON.Path3D(points, BABYLON.Vector3.Up(), raw); // raw = bool

Not much affect.

I wonder if that seen angle-difference… is a 45 degree angle. hmm. (Wingy feels a brain tumor forming near his left temple.)

src for p3d

our “car” is staying reasonably heads-up (not much roll)

Yeah, not much roll, Wingy. Just enough to make your life miserable. That’ll teach ya not-to “smack-talk” the Oimo plugin. heh

[aFalcon]

Cool topic, maybe here’s a view of the glitch:

It looks like the ends are combining at a tight angle?

Like a corner:

So, if join is on straight section of track maybe no glitch?

UPDATE: after re-reading I see you were joking about the angle, and looking into the challenge with the binormals not lining up…

[Wingnut]

Hiya aF! Yeah, that sort-of sounds correct… maybe. (I sound sure-of-myself, eh?)

A guy could ponder… “What IS the relationship of a pitch’n’yaw (x/y) rotation… to a direction/axis?”

Why did the car roll (z-rot) AT ALL? Probably something involving “goes-around, comes-around” But, with a goes-around, comes-around issue (spirography), I would have expected the normals to be 180 degrees different, not 45± degrees different. hmm.

Axis IS a direction, though… I think. Or not. Directions need a magnitude, but so does an axis, I think. All-in-all, Mister Direction IS involved, here, somehow. Something… path-illogical.

[JohnK]

the final and first tangents are the same

Hi JK, thx for the response. I am not seeing that to be true, at console.

OK I really meant equal enough not to worry too much about it compared to the normals and binormals

Object { x: -0.8496, y: 0.4638, z: -0.2509 }

Object { x: -0.3619, y: 0.3145, z: -0.8774 }

B

Object { x: -0.2832, y: 0, z: 0.9590 }

Object { x: -0.8227, y: 0.3347, z: 0.4594 }

It is the normal and binormal that gives the rotation of the car body about the path.

Here is an interesting version https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1YD970#63 This has a fixed normal all the way round. Sometimes the card appears to flick around, ie the rotation looks wrong. Focus on where this happens on the path and move the camera around to view that part of the path from different angles and at the appropriate angles you will see a smooth movement of the card. So in these cases it is to do with the viewing angle not the movement. (I am suggesting that even in the real world from some angles it would appear that the car would flick around). However there is one section of the curve I cannot find a smooth transition view - at a very kinky part of the path.

[Wingnut]

Nod. Thx John. An incorrect rotation that is eased-into… is fine, and perhaps understandable.

But “fast-jerk rotation-change” is not normal, and is not going to work for trains or parading of mesh or cameras. The #62 playground is perfect… except for where end meets start. It has only one fast-jerk rotation, where #63 has two.

I have a goofy idea. Let’s say we put a lookAT target in the middle of the circle-path. This lookAt target constantly moves up/down… to exactly match the worldSpace Y-height of the car, and the car constantly does car.lookAt(lookatTarget) with its RIGHT face (or left face if path travel is reversed). No rotation is ever set with code calculations. All rotation is done by right-side lookAt’s.

We could use the optional rotationOffset feature of lookAt… to make the car’s right-side… be the lookAt face.

This system is essentially a telephone pole in the center of the path-circle… that a lookAt target moves up/down along. This would also allow me to do banking. In our case, a hard-right banking could happen if lookAt target is lower than car.position.y.

One problem. LookAt likely affects car yaw and pitch, TOO. That… can’t be allowed to happen. It must ONLY affect car roll. AND… this is only ONE car. When we have 300 characters of MeshWriter fonts traveling the path… all characters will have a different ROLL-rotation than each other (because they are each at their own unique path-point and worldSpace altitude). That would mean that EACH character in the fonts-train… would need its OWN PERSONAL lookAt target moving up/down the center pole. OUCH!

What if I “hung” a disabled car-parented freeCam… from the BOTTOM-face of the car… and set freecam.applyGravity = true? heh. Should get good heads-up on the car, AND get some banking due-to… um… camera.inertia. heheh.

NOOOOO, that won’t work. But… yeah, physics-active “keel” hanging beneath the car(s)… would likely work pretty good… up-to-a point (ar ar) (a point of CPU bog due-to too many mesh on-the-path/in-frustum).

hmm. Just thinkin’. I don’t think the current method of controlling rotation… is going to work. Thx for your study and work, though. All comments/ideas welcome, always.

Perhaps I will try a playground, using the “variable-altitude lookAt target” (VALT) idea, unless someone beats me to it. I have some real-life junk to do first, but, it’s NOT snow-blowing! YAY!

[JohnK]

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1YD970#64

Uses a hacked version, of the function used to compute the tangents, normals and binormals of a path, for the special case of a closed path.

EDIT
BOTHERATIONS thought I had better look at the binormals and they go haywire.
https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1YD970#65
Back to drawing board?

More Editing
Turns out they do in #62 as well https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1YD970#66 perhaps they do not matter so much!

[Wingnut]

“botherations”? haha. Funny word.

Babylon.js/math.ts at master · BabylonJS/Babylon.js · GitHub (a helper func for normals-calculations in BJS Path3D class)

if (!Scalar.WithinEpsilon(Math.abs(vt.y) / tgl, 1.0, Epsilon))

(My current brain tumor just had a baby brain tumor!)

If there were an “off-by-one” error in that Path3D code, who would ever know? It looks like a calculator exploded in there. A guy could sink in all those floats!

[Wingnut]

Hi again, gang!

In the continuing story of our Path3d-playing, here’s a new version - #67.

In the source code for Path3d, there is MUCH talk about “first normal” which… is a user-settable parameter in the Path3d constructor. So, I set mine… to “up” vector… line 115.

Then… I put a sphere “atop” the carBody… to indicate which-way is UP, for IT. You can think of it as the head of a human, riding in our roller-coaster car.

Tests showed that the green Bi-Normals were aligned with the rider’s head. We ACTUALLY want the white Normals aligned with rider’s head… because… we set our “first normal” to v3.Up() in the Path3d constructor.

So… being the brave-but-blind explorer that I am… i re-arranged the ORDER of the arrays in our line 161 rotation formula. It WAS:
RotationFromAxis(normals[i], binormals[i], tangents[i]);

I eventually (trial’n’error-) found THIS order:
RotationFromAxis(tangents[i], normals[i], binormals[i]);

Now we have the white normals, passing thru the rider’s head… looking good. BiNormals are cross-product, as they should be (like I know what a cross-product is). I think all further experiments/playgrounds… should use this new formula-order.

If we look at (@JohnK’s?) playground example of the 6 path-following planes, examining lines 59-77, it is not unusual for tangents[i] to be the FIRST parameter. Case 0 and case 1 both have tangents as the first parameter. I chose to use case 3 (example 4) because the plane on the fourth “path follower”… stays orthoganous to its tobagganous.

In other words, the plane stays perpendicular to the path-line… all the time… exactly what I (and toboggan riders)… wish-for.

But maybe, case 3 (example 4) should be adjusted to match our NEW formula order.

Now that our formula “order” has changed, I decided to remove the optional BABYLON.Vector3.Up() “first normal” from the line 115 Path3d constructor, to see what the Path3d code uses as a default firstNormal value. Does Path3d set firstNormal as “up”, by default?

PG #68 tells us the answer, as does source code line 6974. It appears to set firstNormal = null, by default. And we can see a difference in #67 and #68 playgrounds, though BOTH (-erations?) have the white normals passing thru the rider’s head… properly.

If we want to follow firstNormal a bit… it is used again in source code line 6981, and arrives at the _compute function to be used in src line 7056.

From there, it arrives in the helper func called normalVector as 2nd parameter va. From there, it goes to line 7133 where it is tested for null-ness (its default value).

If null, it goes into that brain tumor epsilon stuff. I believe epsilon stuff is a type of “rounding”, and a mechanism to avoid a divide-by-zero error. In Star Trek lingo, it makes sure that the transporter places the human on ONE side of the wall, OR the OTHER side, but not “into” the wall.

Anyway, I am simply telling of my experiments and things learned. No miraculous discoveries, but still better than accidentally peeing-on your own foot, right?

[JohnK]

A couple more to play with. Following your lead a swap in order of parameters (lines 12 and 34) can make major changes https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1YD970#69.

Take a ride https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1YD970#70

[Wingnut]

You DID IT! Freakin’-A! (Wingy dances around like an idiot)

Hooray! Holy crap. 3-parameter call, eh?
this._normalVector(tg0, this._curve[0], firstNormal);

Interesting. This PG disables (overrides?) the optional firstNormal parameter for Path3d constructor, but who cares? No jerk-rotations. YAY!

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1YD970#71

I still like having the normals bisect our rider’s head, and not the binormals, so, I changed the formula order again. Later, if/when the optional firstNormal parameter is honored again, I might be able to return the formula order… to original order.

All in all, congrats, JK! Fantastic! We’re on our way, again. THANK YOU! Nice work!

I suppose, somehow, we’re still seeking a no-car-roll version… where the rider’s head stays as vertical as-possible, roll-wise. Natually, car pitch is going to affect rider UP-vector, but that’s fine. If we could accomplish growing paths that TRY to maintain rider head-up (roll-wise), that would be great.

That way, I get full-control of the banking (car z-rotation/roll), and NO control of banking is given to the path3d “grower” formula.

I’m not sure HOW I will manually program banking, but, physics is a possibility. By dangling/hanging/suspending a joint and pendulum-weight beneath each “train car”… and ONLY allowing carBodyImpostor ROLL… that might work. We cannot “lock” physics pitch and yaw. Instead, pitch and yaw must “free-wheel” - controlled only by path, not by physics. Only impostor roll… would be honored by our car. Weird thing, huh?

MAYBE…a special Path3d grower… COULD tilt the normals on the corners… by itself… and we would have a .bankingIntensity property. The amount of car upVector roll-tilt… would be based-upon the amount of x and z change… between current point and next point. Sideways (lateral) inertia calculations. Fancy.

[aFalcon]

Wingnut your Chronicles are the best!

The solution above is cool. @Wingnut and @JohnK - thanks. Your writing on: normals, binormals, orthogonals, is a fun read. Highest honor:

UPDATE: followed through the experiment very interesting!

Seems like the SOLUTION was to reorder tangents and first normals!?! Interesting.

Catching up,
afalcon

[Wingnut]

Wingnut, if I wrote something that offended you - I apologize.

Not at all, aFalcon, you have never offended me, not even a little. And you speak just fine, and thanks for the kind words about TWC. Very nice of you!

The problem is… I’m not very smart. Almost everyone around here… knows more about 3d, math, and JS… than I do. And when I do learn something, I forget it quite often/quickly.

But, I have a darned good time… hanging-out with you pro developers. It’s a very enjoyable part of my life, and ya’ll are high-valued acquaintances. You guys all amaze me, and I’m honored to be included in the community.

The direction (angle) thing you brought-up… in an earlier post… sort of blew my mind. Immediately I got axes and direction vectors all confused and blurry.

Jerome’s rollercoaster is really not a good place to study severe direction changes, because he built that rollercoaster out of “pieces” of various formulas… paths mixed with beziers mixed with who knows what else. His path is much more complicated than the one we are playing-with, here.

Thanks for all the input about paths and banking that you just gave us. Excellent. We need all the input we can get. We want to make Path3d as versatile as possible, and learn when and where to use it.

I really like our rotationFromAxis() function. It allows us full control of the car… IF we learn to bend the normals EXACTLY how we want them bent. That allows us to have a “dumb vehicle”… where the car isn’t needing to do much calculating as it travels. When we get many train-cars or MeshWriter fonts traveling the path… dumb-cars will have better performance and unlimited-cars-scale-ability.

And yes, I, too, ran into “the difference” between a flat path, and a rolling-hills path. At first, I saw no hope, but then I found other people’s tests… and got excited! I am real impressed and happy with what we have done here, so far. I would prefer NOT to use physics… but instead… grow a path3d that has variable banking built-in… BECAUSE of the way we built the path3D.

I’m WAY BEHIND on the learning curve3d, but… again, I’m having one helluva good time, playing with tech that I really love, which has great self-satisfaction and self-gratification. A guy couldn’t ask for more. It’s the best hobby in the world.

[aFalcon]

Lol, you respond faster than I can edit out grammar mistakes.

Cool! rotationFromAxis() :squirrel:

Same… and will help.

[Wingnut]

Yeah, RotationFromAxis() has “the formula” that we have been examining… PG #71 line 140. We have been playing with the ORDER of its three params.

Notice the white normals are bisecting the rider’s head.

Change line 140 to RotationFromAxis(normals[i], binormals[i], tangents[i]); …and now the green binormals are hitting our rider in the head.

Three params… exactly what it takes to define an axis. hmm.

[nasimiasl]

he is a terminator

[aFalcon]

---

INTERESTING: two types of “BANK PHYSICS” - for a roll around a corner.

1 for car and 2 for surfer.

1. the physics of the car (around a turn) - rolls outward rotation (+ offset)

2. the physics of the surfer (around a turn) - rolls inward rotation (- offset)

Will soon experiment with ways to apply with RotationFromAxis.

Sorry for tangent.

[Wingnut]

two types of “BANK PHYSICS”

Nuh-uh. Both have the same forces. Tilted surfboard turn == tilted speedway turn.

If ya think about it too long, ya run the risk of second-guessing yourself. Easy to do.

Anyone know what the heck @nasimiasl is talking about? Who is he talking-to, about what? Did a joke pass over-my-head?

[Rah]

he is talking about you i think.
Jokingly.

Because you always reply/get the playground out faster than anybody else.

You are like a robit.

Dare i say…

A terminator

[aFalcon]

same forces

you are right, wasn’t talking about force. Just surprised roll direction can be different direction for different objects, and thought it worth sharing. Since my task is opposite(as usual). I see you ran into something similar before. Yes like a motorcycle is different than car!(below). I’ll try both: roll-in and roll-out. But I’ll study up on binormals and RotationFromAxis() first. Thx.

[Wingnut]

Well, you were talking about roll-rotation… based on physics.

Yeah, you can manually-roll any object, any way you wish. But… given a flat turn to the right, the surfer will try to go straight… possibly leaving the surfboard to the left during the turn (inertia/momentum). He/She will tumble ass-over-tea-kettle… +z. (or fly thru the air with possibly NO significant rotation)

The car does the same, or the driver of the car. The car will roll +z, or the driver will be ejected out-of the driver’s side window (left - for USA cars).

In a clockwise centrifuge, any object will try to tumble +z and try to exit to the outside. No chance of tumbling -z and moving toward the center.

Motorcycles (and surfers) lean in the direction of the turn… to prevent tumble toward “the outside”.

Am I wrong? Physics-wise, the vehicle-type does not matter for natural roll direction (if the pivot-point == center of gravity/mass). At least I THINK that is true. I could be wrong. Party on.

[Wingnut]

binormals and RotationFromAxis()

Hi again. Really, we just need to study the _compute function. I don’t know how closely you have been following-along. In PG’s #69/#71, @JohnK created a modified _compute() in lines 2-39… that fixes the mis-aligned normals that happened at the path start-end intersection. That func still has one problem… it ignores the optional “firstNormal” parameter in a Path3D constructor. I’m hoping our little team can find that issue and recover it.

The #71 playground car - its roll rotation is essentially dictated/ordered… by the white normals (no joystick or keyboard allowed… all robot-controlled).

Sooooo… hmm… for THIS application (robot-grown path3d’s), we might be able to adjust the compute() function… to add some tilt to its normals… based upon the X/Z relationship of CURRENT pathpoint (cpp)… to NEXT pathpoint (npp). In effect, we want to measure the X and Z difference between cpp and npp, and use that factor in normals computations. Previous path-point (ppp) might get involved, too.

There is NO axis at the path-point when _compute() runs. IT… derives/calcs the axis of cpp. At that point (ar ar)… it has the ability to attempt realistic, but still robot-created and “fixed-value”… banking (simulated).

For a 500-pt path like pg #71, lines 27-38 of _compute() runs 500 times before the scene’s first render… creating an axis for each point.

If your interests are with player-controlled banking, then robot-faked banking is not going to be very interesting for you. Really, hacking on _compute() is the main target for this project, right now.

Want a synopsis? I knew ya did.

Line 5: Probably a lie. I think the code following it ONLY deals with FIRST tangent, and not last. But, first/last values COULD be identical. Unlikely, though, unless the first/last points are over-layed, position-wise. (2 points in one place)

Lines 10-20: This section is all “init” code… trying to prepare the FIRST point/normal/axis. This is likely the area where optional firstNormal parameter is being over-ridden or somehow ignored.

Lines 21-33: Uber-hot! Lines 29/32/33… that’s where we would add simu-banking… to influence the normals into tilting… in a banking-like way (with adjustable intensity and likely a reverseBanking boolean option, too).

In #71 PG, change line 97 Path3d constructor to:
var path3d = new BABYLON.Path3D(points, BABYLON.Vector3.Down());

No change in scene seen. BABYLON.Vector3.Down() (and 5 similar statics ie. Left()) is being ignored/over-ridden. Likely an issue in line 12, a line modified by @JohnK. John also modified lines 33/34, I think. HOPEFULLY, those lines are ok, and we can modify line 12 area… without re-introducing the start-end problem.

These grown paths we do here… are fire-and-forget. They are grown in a certain way, and dynamic on-the-fly (ar ar) adjusting of the path/normals… is likely implausible, as it will require growing a new 500-pt path.

As for BInormals, they are created in lines 34-37. They are simply derived from the Cross of the normal, but they are highly important because they provide one “radial” (yaw) of the 3 needed for our rotationFromAxis() “motor”.

curTang is probably the direction of the path, similar-to or identical-to… car.rotation Forward() / Back(). Wiki - tangent.

Ok, now you know MY “train” of thought on this project. I’m an exciting storyteller, eh? (snore)

White normals, brown abnormals, emBANKments… there’s a distasteful border-wall joke around here SOMEWHERE. heh

[aFalcon]

afalcon lookin…

binormal is a cross of the normal, got it. Looking at Epsilon… 0.001. Source code gr8!

After following the experiment through - the modification of the compute function is remarkable.

Many things learned above. See you mentioned a boolean switch on banking direction.

Excited to attempt non-math implementation of curve this week - and understanding normals better is big help.

You are correct - the robot curves are not applicable to implementation, it is a custom curve. Apparently, all the normals will be UP. So a curve in xz plane.

Any way to EDIT normals on a curve? (set them all to UP?)
We have the curve and yep - normals all over!
I suppose it is in the normal array?
Sounds fun. Cant wait.
I’ll shareback whatever …

[aFalcon]

Ok, just about to start pulling levers and twisting knobs…

NOTE: here was the non-math LookAt solution (on a flat plane: y stubbed at 0):

      /*----------------Animation Loop---------------------------*/
        var i=0;
        var lastPathPoint = {};
        var pathTargetSphere =  BABYLON.MeshBuilder.CreateSphere('', { diameter: 1.5 }, nx.scene);
        pathTargetSphere.position.y = 0;

        nx.scene.registerBeforeRender(function() {

            if(character.position){

                if(pathTargetSphere.position){
                    lastPathPoint = pathTargetSphere.position;
                    character.position.x = lastPathPoint.x;
                    character.position.z = lastPathPoint.z;
                }

               pathTargetSphere.position.x = points[i].x;
               pathTargetSphere.position.z = points[i].z;

               character.lookAt(pathTargetSphere.position)  // <-- proof of concept.
             // theta = Math.acos(BABYLON.Vector3.Dot(normals[i],normals[i+1]));
             // var dir = BABYLON.Vector3.Cross(normals[i],normals[i+1]).y;
             // var dir = dir/Math.abs(dir);
             // character.rotate(BABYLON.Axis.Y, (dir * theta), BABYLON.Space.WORLD);
             // character.rotate(BABYLON.Axis.Y, dir, BABYLON.Space.WORLD);
             // character.rotate(BABYLON.Axis.Y, theta, BABYLON.Space.WORLD);

                i = (i + 1) % (n-1); //path point picker restarts at 0 along path.
            }

        });

     /*----------------End Animation Loop---------------------------*/

It was a solution to the rounding error mentioned in the docs, for the car after a long period of time.

It was also used later for enemy movements (with JK’s help) around an infinity path.

I’ll try a few things …

1. all curve normals up.

2. control of speed - on a path with fewer points? (or not) (interpolate from point to point?)

3. banking … (offset on curve?)

4. condensing the 3 arrays into 1 array of objects with meta data for each point (and reducing points).

Anything can happen!

[Wingnut]

I’ll try a few things …

1. all curve normals up.
2. control of speed - on a path with fewer points? (or not) (interpolate from point to point?)
3. banking … (offset on curve?)
4. condensing the 3 arrays into 1 array of objects with meta data for each point (and reducing points).

Hiya bird!

1. For MY use, they must be “up”… ROLL-WISE-ONLY. A “pure up” will kill the pitch of the car for non-flat paths.

2. Could be done. Starting to lean-towards Jerome’s rollercoaster. Interpolation is actually frame-points between the path-points, which is adding more points… so you are possibly self-defeating, and you will also have a difficult time maintaining consistent path-speed, if that is sought. I need to study animations around bezier curves… to speak intelligently about that. Are keyframe-points more compressed (closer together) around tight turns, as compared to straighter-stretches? hmm. Do animation speeds around corners… slow-down because of that?

3. Not really an offset on “curve”, at least not the curve array. Curve array is positions, and we don’t want those to change (unless we plot a new path3d). We only want to roll the rotation of the car. There MAY BE certain applications where the car would positionally “side-slide” away-from the path track, or maybe jump above the path-track, but I have no need for that, yet. My goal is trains and roller-coasters, so far. Many cars, consistently spaced, no matter the speed of the first car. Think sentences… where the distance between letters is adjustable, and so is the gap between words. Once the sentence-train is traveling the path, the letter and word spacing must remain consistent/locked.

4. Yeah, that is similar to the “smart-path” idea of long-ago… where each point contains information about what the car should do AT THAT POINT. (in a way, that’s what we are already doing.) Your idea would still require “growing” all the metaData in every point, and/or robot doing the animation interpolations. But yep, certainly a possibility. I still have much work to do on this more-standard method… before I wander-off into “intelligent paths/points”. Research at-will, of course. (thx!)

Your #1 would help my cause… the most. Normals that are all UP roll-wise, is definitely something that I need to do with _compute() before any tilted-normals banking experiments can start. But the UP normals cannot be UP… PITCH-wise, or else the car will not aim up/down hills. Thanks for any help/contributions on that.

I would REALLY like to get the Path3d 2nd parameter firstNormal working correctly FIRST, as that will affect SO MANY other things. Party on!

[aFalcon]

You are right.

Path3D second parameter seems like a good addition. : )

UPDATE: done editing!

[Wingnut]

Haha… yep, ub bizarro, for sure. Fun thinkings, though… I was “with you” for the whole read. Fun!

Keep in mind… that lookAt sucks for trains. 100-car train, all following a SINGLE roll-only lookAt target… causes all train cars to do that same lookAt/banking. Not right. In true train-land… the front of the train may be well into the banked corner, while the back of the train… still on the flat-lands… not yet arrived at the turn.

Yes, it would take 100 separate lookAt targets moving up/down an invisible pole in the middle of the circular path… each with their own private altitude. Gruesome. I must stay on current target… growing fake-banking into the compute(). All other dreaming allowed and encouraged, of course.

In parts of your post… you like to say “slower” and “faster”… but you don’t specify which phase… growing the path, or driving many mesh along-it. We probably don’t care how long it takes to grow a path.

Motoring a MeshWriter-fonts (3d fonts) train-of-text… displaying the latest CNN headlines… speed/perf might be important, there. Drive-perf, not grow-perf.

Bones. hehe. Using bones to actually DRAG the cars behind the locomotive, and using bone-length for spaces between words and characters on the text-train. Good idea… maybe. The train is one long “spine”. heh. I kind-of like that idea.

Bone-binding to the lookAt target? Ok for single vehicle. Fun!

Ever ponder… that we could fly an object around in-space… smoothly… using precisely-positioned and often-overlapping “gravity wells”? You know… precisely-positioned/aimed vacuum cleaner hoses in space… sucking a mesh around. heh.

can we interpolate evenly across multiple point sets?

Hey, if the railroads can move from path to path, so can we (I fig).

[aFalcon]

Yep, favor bones on second thought - for 100 train cars.

[aFalcon]

INTERPOLATING from POINT-TO-POINT.

        var i=0;
        var cpp = {};
        var npp = {};
        var animatePath = false;
        var advancePoint = true;
        var pathTargetSphere =  BABYLON.MeshBuilder.CreateSphere('', { diameter: 1.5 }, nx.scene);
        nx.scene.registerBeforeRender(function() {
          if(!car|| !car.position){return}
          if(advancePoint){  //trigger next path point
            cpp = pathPoints[i];
            car.position.x = cpp.x;
            car.position.z = cpp.z;
            car.position.y =0;
            i = (i + 1) % (n); //next path point picker restarts at 0 along path.
            npp = pathPoints[i];
            pathTargetSphere.position = npp;
            car.lookAt(pathTargetSphere.position)
            advancePoint = false;
            animatePath = true;
          } else if (animatePath) { //INTERPOLATE-MOVEMENT-FROM POINT-TO-POINT-.
            animatePath = false; //one time trigger;
            $({cppx:cpp.x,cppz:cpp.z}).animate({cppx:npp.x,cppz:npp.z}, {duration:5000,
              step: function(now) {
                car.position.x = this.cppx;
                car.position.z = this.cppz;
              }, complete:function(){ advancePoint = true; }
            });
          }
        });

DESCRIPTION: separates SPEED of car from number of POINTS on path. So path points can be anything, and speed can vary.

PERFORMANCE: not a noticeable difference

PROBLEM: Governed by TIME is a SPEED problem for different DISTANCES, solved by adding magnitude to SmartPath. Also easing. Still y = 0;

---

SMARTPATH (pathMeta):

        var obj = {};
        var pathMeta = [];
        var pathPoints = [];
        for (var i = 0; i < n + 1; i++) {
          var pos = new BABYLON.Vector3((r + (r/5)*Math.sin(8*i*Math.PI/n))* Math.sin(2*i*Math.PI/n), 0, (r + (r/10)*Math.sin(6*i*Math.PI/n)) * Math.cos(2*i*Math.PI/n))
          obj = {pos:pos,weight:0,rollDirection:0,magnitude:0};
          pathPoints.push(pos);
          pathMeta.push(obj);
        }

DESCRIPTION: allows metadata to be placed on PATH to affect RUNTIME.

---

CONFIRMED: Found a tiny (off by 1) BUG… (contributed to the glitch!!!)
i = (i + 1) % (n-1); //skips the last path point
i = (i + 1) % (n); //includes the last path point

I see it was found and fixed in the solution…

[Wingnut]

No playgrounds? Bizarro.

[aFalcon]

Lol. yeah.

You want a playground of the BOAT-Pitch-Rig?

Would be willing to refactor that out… if it helps.

[Wingnut]

Simple box… fine with me. The simpler PG, the better. PG’s are such good teaching/collaboration aids, that I can easily overlook disliked things. I like to offer everyone… easy participation and thorough explanations.

But that’s just me… Chief Lamer of the Lamer Support Foundation. And let’s not forget about the kids. There’s 8 year olds nearby… learning… future superstars of BJS.

[Deltakosh]

You PG does not work, because it is not a real PG. Just a dump of your code

For instance canvas01 does not exist. Same for math.seedrandom…

And you just need to create a createScene function in PG. No need for the renderLoop (the PG takes care of it)

[aFalcon]

Here is PROOF OF CONCEPT of POINT to POINT interpolation:

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#P537WE

• separates CAR speed from number of PATH POINTS
• uses jQuery syntax:

$({cppx:cpp.x,cppz:cpp.z}).animate({cppx:npp.x,cppz:npp.z}, {duration:5000,
            step: function(now) {
              carBody.position.x = this.cppx;
              carBody.position.z = this.cppz;
            }, complete:function(){ advancePoint = true; }
          });

• awesome that jquery is in Playground (…)
• love that syntax. business requirement. wish it was in bjs.
• could fix slerp turns Babylon.js Playground
• could still ray sense pitch from ground (below)

---

UPDATE:

Here is BOAT PITCH-RIG senses waves and adjustes pitch:

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#ZDQHIE#4 (cleaned code/ anm vOffset)

DESCRIPTION: uses 2 raycasts 1) downRay and 2) forwardRay to determine pitch with a vertical offset lookAt. Also ROLL determined by user command. wasd.

It used to have jump(space) and movement fwd (w) , but both broke in translation. Not sure why.

[aFalcon]

Dr. Kosh, TLDR;

Sorry.

---

If we had the Version Combo Box back - that would be great!

Regards,

<still-probably=user-error>

[Deltakosh]

They do not as long as you use standard features (nothing starting with _)

I spend a LOT of energy to keep everything backward compatible (And unfortunately sometimes I fail) so PG should work

[aFalcon]

Understand. Thanks. Sorry.

If ever possible, Freeze PGs aok by me.

[sable]

Regarding freezing pg bjs version, would it not be relatively easy to add, just by relying on something like jsdelivr, where you can explicitly set a version from github tags or commit.

I for example use:
DebugLayer.InspectorURL = https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/gh/BabylonJS/Babylon.js@4.0.0-alpha.22/dist/preview%20release/inspector/babylon.inspector.bundle.max.js
so that the inspector doesn’t break when using a slightly older version of babylonjs (which seems to happen relatively frequently).

You can in fact load an old version yourself in the pg (albeit somewhat clumsily):
https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#P55NMR

[Wingnut]

Good info, guys!

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1YD970#75

Nothing new in #75 except… I brought-in _compute()'s partner… _normalVector(). So now we have (almost) ALL the portions of the “normals growing system”… in the playground… ready for easy demented experimenting.

For those who are lost/new, the _compute and _normalVector funcs at the top of this playground… have been “borrowed” from the BJS core Path3d system. By pasting them at the top of a playground as we have done, we tell the scene to use OUR functions (for forming our Path3d), and NOT the default/core functions. Easy experimenting… without accidentally breaking anything important in BJS core-code. Onward we go…

Also note that my Path3d has a v3.Down() as its optional firstNormal parameter… in line 139. Adjust or remove, as wanted, of course. Change to Forward() or Backward() to see that it IS being honored… just… not well-honored/used, yet. Most important for me/us, are likely Up(), Down(), Left(), Right().

Other than that, no mods. I’m using @JohnK’s modified _compute(), and an un-modified _normalVector(). One of John’s mods… involves line 34 of _compute(). The ORIGINAL line 34… only sent TWO params to _normalVector(). I think John added the optional 3rd parameter.

I see a few “twitches” out there, during the animation. There are a few bad welds and bent radials. Not sure why, yet. I’m getting ready to start some power-hacking. Lines 186-188 MIGHT be causing one of the twitch-spots.

Bringing _normalVector() function into the playground… MIGHT have changed the Path3d. Perhaps do some experiments with disabling it, or comparing PG#75 path to PG#71 path. Not sure WHY hijacking-in _normalVector() would matter, unless I borrowed it from the wrong BJS version or something.

Current objective: Fix bad welds and bent radials. Seek all normals being DOWN, roll-wise-only (z). (Because I set v3.Down() as firstNormal). Car should not roll/bank left or right (yet)… but CAN/MUST “pitch” (x) up/down hills (like it does currently). Party on!

[aFalcon]

//normal0!

hello, _normalVector()

---

cool overrides... Following the Cross's through... > Need to read up on !WithinEpisilon, and CrossToRef

---

Nice! Changed parameters! (no tangents?) Of course, tangents ('I'll stop). :sunglasses: > projection?.

---

Up(), Down(), Left(), Right() +1.:RED_heart:

---

It is pitching!?! Very cool. :star2:

---

Hello, DownVector! There it is... where'd it go? Didn't find the pitching. :grin:. > Need to Read up on: 3DPath(params).

---

And emoticons broken? It's only me. :gr8:

---

Apparently comparing [Rollercoasters Now!] (https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1HH4OJ#30) > Need to read up on Refs: addToRef, subtractToRef, scaleToRef... Note to self.

---

Cool experiment...:slight-smile:

[Wingnut]

(Rollercoasters Now!)[https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1HH4OJ#30] > Need to read up on Refs: addToRef, subtractToRef, scaleToRef… Note to self.

Perhaps read-up on making BBCode links, too. Possibly a “Proofreading your post” night class? hehe. Sorry.

Btw, it was just a post. I hope I didn’t imply that anything needed to be studied or burned-into memory.

Yep, car currently pitches fine. I haven’t studied the diff between 2-param and 3-param _normalVector() calls, yet. In fact, I haven’t done anything at all.

Oh wait, I turned-on viewing of tangents (blue) and Wingy-created arctangents (red).

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1YD970#76

Other than being darned pretty, and perhaps showing a few more “oddities”, it doesn’t accomplish anything. I should probably reduce the points a bit… maybe see something new. Tangents are definitely the path DIRECTION at each path-point, though. Same as car.rotation.Forward(), I suppose.

Most interesting things: Line 173 show-tangents needs a 30-length show-line. Line 179 show-arctangents needs a 1-length show-line. Weird.

I might be building the arctangents wrongly… in line 177… killing their magnitudes or something.

[JohnK]

More roller-coaster fun. Well not so much a roller-coaster at the moment just a track with roll. I wanted to examine just the roll effect of going round a curve, so as yet no height changes.

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#LEWFVI#1

Explanation.
As usual I like to start simply. We are building a railway consisting of a single line of rails. Each rail has a fixed length and all rails are the same height above the ground. A car moves along the rail balanced along a central fixing. For a straight railway people in the car remain vertical. For a curve made of the rails the people in the car lean towards the center of the curve.

Building a closed loop with the rails will produce a regular polygon. The more rails the larger the radius of the circle around it and the smaller the angles between the rails.

The larger the radius the less the curvature of the circle and the less the people will lean. Curvature is in fact 1/radius. At any position along the railway we will need to know its curvature to determine the amount of lean needed at that point.

My first attempts still produce wild variations in normals and binormals

So current attempts smooth these out.

TL; DR

The baseCompute function takes the generated points, an angle, and a damping factor.
The tangents and curvature at all points are calculated. The cross products of successive tangents are used to determine if the curve is inwards or outwards. When there is little difference in the x or z components of successive tangents they are in a straight line so curvature is zero. The amount of lean, theta, is calculated from the curvature found * angle * damping.
The larger the angle used the more the lean, the larger the damping the less the lean.

Angles and tangents are stored.

The angles are then smoothed using a moving average in the function smooth. This takes two parameters the array to be smoothed and the width of the smoothing w, which is how far either side of the current value to take averages from. With w = 2, the value at index 6, for example, with become the average of the values at indices, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8. That is the larger the w the smoother the angles. Of course too large wipes out essential differences.

Once the angles have been smoothed the rollCompute calculates the normals which give the amount the car will lean away from the vertical and then the binormal using the cross product of thee tangent and normal.

Also I found the more points used the wilder the normals at the turns of the curve. So used less points and set the speed using a weight, the greater the weight the slower the car.

You can see that a large number of points with a very large width for the smooth function does not give a smooth ride https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#LEWFVI#2. I am guessing it is something to do with the handling of very small numbers.

Plenty of parameters to play with.

[JohnK]

An attempt at adding heights https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#LEWFVI#3

[Wingnut]

Excellent work, JK!

As usual I like to start simply.

It didn’t stay there long. heh.

I found some more path code… https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#9IX1NK#52 I haven’t examined it at all… just noticed it was different.

Fun stuff, John. I was thinking about “spherical coordinates” and starting with a circle/ring, as you have been thinking. But when a guy starts warping that ring, the distance-between-points has to adjust SOMEHOW… and that’s where stuff gets ugly. I can’t quite wrap my brain around… well… anything.

One part of me says keep the points equi-distance, and another says “tighten them up” on the corners. When points are spaced inconsistently, what do we do with travel speed? sigh.

I think we NEED to allow user-controlled throttle… somehow… somewhere… someday. But… should speed affect banking-amount? Optional? With pre-calculated banking… that would be difficult to do. But with on-the-fly banking calculations done by the car itself and its current speed (real-time)… maybe can-do.

Has anyone tested if a gyroscope works in a physics engine? Anyone know? (sorry, mental wander)

Spherical coordinates. https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#J6ZLH#4 There’s some borrowed code in there… that plots points on the sphere… at some distance from center. Concentricity? Opposite of Eccentricity, right?

NOOOOOO,Wingy.

In a later version, someone made it into a Valentine’s Day heart.

I’m REALLY focused on the issue, eh? (not) I don’t have ANY worthwhile comments/contributions.

John, I think you have created a banking proof-of-concept, at least. Thanks! Fun to watch!

[aFalcon]

set the speed using a weight, the greater the weight the slower the car.

Impressive code John.

Wingnut, cool links. Angular momentum is interesting.

I wonder… Gyroscope - Web APIs | MDN

Thanks for confirming that tangents are on the points.

[Wingnut]

On the never-ending (circular) path3d subject, here’s another.

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1YD970#82

This one is quite different. Only 50 points define this retarded path (which is grown in lines 186-196).

RotationFromAxis is disabled, along with ALL the registerBeforeRender area (all old-style car-moving things - disabled)

ALL movement for THIS non-coasting coaster… is done within the onReadyObserver code in lines 282-310. PURE BJS animation. YAY! Positions-animation ONLY, so far. Yaw/Pitch rotation animation might only be tangents away from us.

For this positions animation, I just force the points array into being the keyFrames array. Easy. A little note: points array == path3d._path == path3d._curve.

It’s pretty smooth for being a mere 50 points. The BJS Animation-system interpolator is likely inserting steps between each of our 50 points. I wonder if we can query the Animation’s interpolation… to see how many “steps” it has. I bet it is more than 50.

I like it. CarBody changed to cone… so it is easier to see if/when the carBody has correct yaw/pitch. (it currently doesn’t)

BJS animation system is doing a good job at positioning our car along the path3d points-path, and we are driver-heads-up (yay!).

Now, we just need pitch and yaw animation. Roll comes later.

NOTE: This PG is using an in-playground DEFAULT _compute() because John’s custom _compute removed path3d.distances. The distances array is mostly unused, but I wanted to see what it looked-like… at console. It is essentially… mile-posts/km-posts… might be useful someday.

Update: PG #84 has both “posdrive” and “rotdrive” animations active. Rotdrive and rotkeyFrames are being derived from tangents… and is not looking healthy. But hey, its only our first step, and we have not yet learned how to avoid ROLL that is on the tangents. We might need yet another animation… floats instead-of vector 3. One for yaw, one for pitch, and none for roll. Three animations total… yaw(float), pitch(float), and position(v3).

Disable line 320 to see that I have set/baked initial cone rotation… so that it aims left-ward with Y-axis up-ward (done in lines 174-176). All that MIGHT need to be removed.

[Wingnut]

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1YD970#88

First 3-animation version. Float animations on yaw and pitch, vector3 animation for position. Default _compute still having problems with aligning normals at start/end. Lines 299 & 305 areas… super critical (what values to use for yaw and pitch anims). Still using Down() as firstNormal. Lots of work in lines 177-179… trying to init NEW-STYLE-car’s rotation. Entire scene needs lots of work/thinking, yet.

Time to bring-in the MeshWriter fonts?

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1YD970#90 (might need extra “RUN” click)

Yikes. Really, I need line 285 to work… animate the “B”. But, it looks like SPS particles are not really ready to be animated. Soooo, I animate the entire meshWriter “master mesh” in line 288, after some prep.

Goofy! It’s just a goofy kind of path-whackin’ day! Path-Whackers. hehe.

[droggam]

Hello Coders…
I working on project everyday,
I still miss Babylonjs but i wonder sometimes if its possible to make a Babylonjs
user interface like it exists in unity?
=)

[Wingnut]

Hiya D! I’ve never driven Unity, but have you seen the BJS editor? http://editor.babylonjs.com/

https://doc.babylonjs.com/resources/getting_started

Pretty nice.

[aFalcon]

HOW IN THE WORLD to get 3DPATH normals pointing UP?

Solved in PG: Monkey RotateFromAxis

[Wingnut]

Hi Chronies! Myself and @Givo are doing a little work on a GUI-based console.log replacement… called console.out()… and its good friend, console.wipe()

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#3EF49E#16

First version… goofing around. Improvements/ideas/comments welcome.

Printing e-values… needs an eval, currently. Understandable. I doubt that we can teach a textBlock to eval things on-the-fly. But who knows?

I’m also getting some undefined reports at the real console. I’m not sure what the story on those is, yet. Party on.

[Wingnut]

Hi gang.
Odd topic, this time. I just learned that there are people nearby… who are being paid to be forum helpers. SOME seen enthusiasm in others… that I thought was “commune spirit” (community)… is actually paycheck spirit/duty.

I don’t know how to feel about this. All my forum helping has been powered by… something different.

When I was working-on the tough and dead-ended Oimo setMotor issue… I kept “feeling” a sense of rushing… something was being hurried… some “dead” line was being sought. Now I understand why. Paychecks were on-the-line.

CHOOSE-TO-be-here’s… and HAVE-TO-be-here’s. Know the difference. heh. Erf.

I always knew that there were capitalists among our commune-ity, but I never thought they would become the steering committee… gathering paychecks based-upon BabylonJS advancement achievements (produce results OR ELSE paycheck threats).

Should I be scared? Should I suddenly have much less enthusiasm towards being a forum helper?

It’s an odd situation. I’m glad I got the list of names… of the sponsored helpers.

Got opinion? Got advice for a “doesn’t know how to feel/think about this” -Wingnut? Maybe 20 deep breaths and an Exedrin?

[Deltakosh]

You know that I worked for Microsoft right? All the babylonjs team members here at Microsoft chose to be part of the team and decided to dedicate their time to work on the engine.

No one have to be here. Everyone decided to be part of our community.

I found fantastic that they could make a living with the project. This way they can dedicate full time making sure the project is getting better. This is how I can make sure that no one is left behind when there is a bug or a feature requirement.

We all need money to live. I’m glad this money comes from an activity that involves creating a free tool for all.

[Wingnut]

Yeah, I know that you work for MS, but I didn’t know that you were paid to work on BabylonJS.

I didn’t know others were paid to work on BJS, either. Your “sweeps” thru the forum… happen at coffee-break-time, lunch time, and late-afternoon, usually. I THOUGHT it was free-time and break-time hobby-work, that happened between/around paid MS projects-work.

I dunno. Microsoft paycheck motivation… as opposed to believe-in-the-cause motivation. Does that feel good/right? How do we trust any of these paid helpers… to help from the heart’n’soul, instead-of from the wallet or from corporate pressures?

It feels like the fox has been allowed to enter the hen-house. It makes me wonder what the name of this “team” is… officially. Does it have a website?

It makes me wonder how qualified YOUR boss is… in BJS operations/history. How many times does your boss… order you around, or deny a BJS change that a user wanted?

Would you guys even KNOW if you have become puppets to YOUR boss and your boss’s boss? Yes, we could sure use the helpers… but not the controlled-type (nuts in a $$$ vise-type) of helpers.

I think it would be wiser to keep the steering committee free-of outside influences. I think you once believed that way, too.

[Deltakosh]

Well I don’t know if you will believe me but I can try at least.

Microsoft decided to pay me to work on babylonjs full-time because several Microsoft products rely on it. The goal is to make sure to get fast support and also support a great community project.

I remain the lead and creator of the project. No one is telling me what to do (besides everyone here when we chat and discuss about options and ideas for babylon future) and Microsoft is utterly respectful towards what we do.

Babylon.js would not be what it is today without Microsoft help as it would have been impossible for me to dedicate so much time on developing the project.

Do you really feel that Microsoft is impacting on anything babylonjs related? I dunno as you were not even aware that my day job was to work on babylonjs.

I hope this will help reassuring you.

[Wingnut]

Do you really feel that Microsoft is impacting on anything babylonjs related?

Did it have an impact on the attempted-to-be-jury-rigged Oimo setMotor issue? The words “lose time” and “move on” came out of your mouth during my bitch session in that thread.

Is the new whiz kid working on the Oimo setMotor? Or did someone suggest he make a “Hey look at us GO” video? Talk about bad prioritizing… holy crap. We already have a “Hey, look at us, ain’t we really something” website. Do we REALLY need more fluffy feel-good? Or do we need Oimo setMotor working?

What size of team did we have working-on the Oimo problem? 2.4 people. We couldn’t get a team together… because everyone was gathering paychecks for doing something else, apparently (seemingly, rushing to “ship” 4.0).

You tell me why you used the words “lose time” and “move on” when dealing with MY request to get the Oimo setMotor working correctly.

Is JohnK being paid by anyone… for painstakingly writing AmmoJS docs because they don’t exist anywhere else on the planet? Probably not. I know what will help John. Let’s make a “My, ain’t we something” video. heh. Let’s throw a get-together to pat each other on the backs for our broken Oimo plugin! Yeah! That’s the ticket to (moral) success (not).

Just ignore me, DK. I’ll get over this or something. I’m glad you are still maintaining control over the project, and thank you for the replies.

More comments welcome. (especially from folks who are NOT influenced by money/corporate-wishes, BJS-wise).

[Deltakosh]

Oimo problem is not related to bjs so that’s why I said “move on”. Nothing else. Nothing related to Microsoft.
Just me saying that this has to be fixed at oimo level.

I hope you gonna get over it and see that nothing changed . On the contrary if you want my thoughts. Having people dedicated to maintain the project is just good news for the community because it means more features, more doc, more demos, etc…

[Wingnut]

I like the “dedication” part… but we are dealing with two type of motivation behind that dedication, now. One comes from believing in BJS, and the other comes from “I gotta feed my kids so I need to kiss butt”.

I got the list of “Team DoItForMoney” now. So do the other commune members. We now know who answers forum questions because they want to see noobs advance and be happy, and who answers OR ELSE their kids might not eat.

One group… thorough, detailed answers and attempts to open trails for future. Other group… cut every corner and remove all unneeded quality… to maximize paycheck work-per-time bang-for-buck.

Is that REALLY what you/we hoped-for? How can we trust Team DoItForMoney?

[Deltakosh]

I will stop answering you as you start to be insulting for people who do not deserve such treatment.

My team is probably among the bigger believers in helping everyone to get better. They do it because they believe in the project. And then they get paid as MS use babylonjs and want to make sure that it is a healthy project. Not the opposite

[Deltakosh]

And if you do not want to trust my team or me, well do it. Not sure what that will imply for you.

Only sadness for me after so many years spent with you on babylonjs

[Wingnut]

Nod. Yah, I don’t know those answers, either. I was operating with a false assumption. I worked very hard to try to help you stay ahead of the noob surge. Come to find out… that you can just requisition more helpers from corporate.

It all just turned-out to be… something different than I thought… something seemingly less noble.

I apologize if I hurt the feelings of you or “your” team. Sometimes things need ironing-out, and rules of good conduct… reminded. Beware of folks who must be paid… to participate in your parade. We “other type”… are far better friends, and you can count-on our join-your-parade reasons… to be good ones.

[Deltakosh]

that you can just requisition more helpers from corporate

That’s not really how it work unfortunately

[JohnK]

Here are my thoughts for what they are worth. There are many reason I like working with Babylon.js and helping on the forum. Not all altruistic. It keeps my aging brain from going senile and stops me watching TV all the time for two and I enjoy it and the satisfaction of achieving something. If someone turned round and said we will pay you to do it I would say thank you very much and take the money. Taking the money would not make me a lesser friend to BJS. (Don’t worry I know no one is going to pay me). I have sought of know for a while that there was a team working at Microsoft on BJS, nothing direct just odd things I read. My feelings are that it is good that a body that has the money to do so recognises the value of BJS. Does that make it less pure? Not for me.

Did I feel pushed or rushed to finish working on the Oimo setMotor, not at all as far as I was concerned I had come up with an answer that had satisfied me. So while recognising your right to feel aggrieved I do not feel that way. So there are my comments from a folk who is NOT influenced by money/corporate-wishes, BJS-wise

[sebavan]

“Team DoItForMoney” is totally wrong, we are just lucky to work on what we are trully passionate about. I started working on Babylon on my free time (still doing it) and I feel amazingly glad and thanksfull it is now my day job as well cause having a job which is your passion feels amazing. The biggest advantage is I can spend my entire days + free time on it where before it was simply my free time.

I feel sad you are making such differences where you could be glad it is even more supported than you thought.

[Pryme8]

I don’t think its fair to assume the intent of others in this manor, but I do see why you are frustrated @Wingnut.

We should not try to label others though. You are a legend around here! You help more then a lot of users but not everyone has the same amount of time to dedicate to guiding others.

<3 Sorry to even interject, it was just a odd thing to see being talked about on your thread.

[Wingnut]

We should not try to label others though

“Paid helpers” is not a label I made-up. They really are paid helpers. Not sure if that’s what you were referring-to.

[aFalcon]

Wingnut you are a legend and a great mentor to many, because you are driven-by-passion.

DK inspires this too. So, like a campfire, any can gather around BABYLON to warm our minds.

Isn’t that why we are all here, in BABYLON, to build something great?

---

JE NE SAIS QUOI!

---

[Wingnut]

Isn’t that why we are all here, in BABYLON, to build something great?

And why we return.

Yep… passion and devotion. You have it, as do a few others. I can tell by the spirit of your/their posts. And thx for the nice words… back-atcha, bro.

Also, I get caught-up in seeing others attain a too-rare feeling of accomplishment, empowerment and self-satisfaction. It’s a blast… watching/hearing a noob… have a happiness overdose… after 2 hours on BJS.

But that’s a different “we”.

Apparently, some “we” are here to collect paychecks. They are going to claim to be passionate when their boss/paycheck-controller is watching. The artificial passion is in their job requirements/description, so you cannot trust it to be true-blue.

To be frank, they are contaminants (metaphorically-speaking, nothing personal). It’s not their fault that they need to perform a possibly-fake-passion dog’n’pony show… in order to eat. That’s what capitalists under terrorist threat from cost-of-living… need to do. Those of us with FREE and true passion… are a threat to their jobs.

This commercializing sets-up a huge conflict of interest and promotes an US vs. THEM war. Corporate-controlled government… vs. …The People. What we thought was a “grass-roots” effort and project… is instead… a crock of shit… and can be sold out from under us in the flash of an eye.

All it takes now… is for MS to offer a couple mil to DK, and BJS is gone, along with all the passion and excitement we have poured into it. The commune is under attack, and I don’t think DK and his paid-to-parade minions… have enough life-experience/capitalism-experience to see it or admit it. All we’re going to get from them is “nuh uh” denials.

We’ll see. If ANY of them says “Larry… I DO SEE what you’re saying and why you are saying it”… we’ll know. Sure, maybe nothing can be done about it, and maybe it’s unavoidable to hire servants. But let’s see if ANYONE even understands what i am saying/claiming, or if it’s just a “nuh uh” denial festival.

Let’s see if they can offer a viable defense of my claims. I doubt they can. They just don’t know enough about the hazards of doing things for money - causing something that was once “clean”… to go dirty. They have never compared an Amish-made shovel… to a Walmart shovel, or they just won’t admit the differences, even if they COULD see them. “nuh uh”.

It’s a sad day. Bacteria got onto something I love. I’d rather shrink the popularity of BJS… until the true-blues/volunteers CAN handle the workload… without hired guns. Safer.

Currently, corporate-sponsored, moderator-level “steering patrols” are roaming the streets of Lake Babylon. They claim to have OUR best interests in mind. Maybe it’s someone else’ best interests… in wallet.

@Deltakosh - Is there any chance you could tell us ALL, HERE, … the names of YOUR boss and THEIR boss? thx. I’d like to add them to the new list of names. I’m sure it’s not private information.

[MarianG]

I think there is not user who use/love babylonjs because it was developed by a team from Microsoft, so in the same time I think we shouldn’t hate/dislike because of this.
While it’s a good product, it doesn’t matter who’s behind it.
That’s my insignificant opinion (short and hope at subject)

[Wingnut]

Hi M. Thx for the comments. Yeah… some of us (people like me) are into “critical thinking”. We (crit-thinkers) want to know the forces that happen in the back-offices, and learn about the tendencies of the people who are making decisions and setting policies/traditions.

Not everyone is “into” poking-around in the dark crawlspaces of life… searching for unwanted rat-poop.

[aFalcon]

BABYLON is the ONE THING - that is DOING it CORRECTLY.

~I rest my case.

[Deltakosh]

Funnily I’m paid by Microsoft to work on Babylon.js since more than 2 years and I never made that secret. So no need for a line of defense. It seems to work pretty well and until now no one complained about that because it is unrelated.

Babylon.js is and will always be a community project. This will be my last comment on this thread. Please just try to stay polite and respectful while talking about other members of our community

[sebavan]

I love the fact that you are expressing all your opinions in such a passionate way but I do not think it is of any interest to insult people as you do here. You can disagree, feel scared and so on but insulting us will not add any constructive thinking to the discussion.

You ask to provide a viable defense but you would not trust anything coming from “contanimants servants paid-to-parade minions with possibly-fake-passion dog’n’pony show” so I am not sure it would be of any help to continue.

Telling you I love working on Babylon could be seen as fake passion, speaking about all the work I do outside my day job for the community could be seen as trying to get more money and it will always be easy to come back from anything we could say to the money aspect. But do you think that if it was only for money I would even take the time to answer ? Do you think that my frustration and anger regarding your message would be that high if it was not linked to true passion ? Probably not… but I hope you ll see it over time through the help and features we ll provide to the community.

PS: I love Minions:

[Wingnut]

insulting us will not add any constructive thinking to the discussion

Wow, if you feel insulted after THIS gentle level of investigation into potential deception, then you’re not ready for round 2 AT ALL, are ya?

Of course you’re not going to have a defense. I think you made a good step… by not bothering to attempt one.

Take note that it is “contaminants”… you should look-it-up and see if you understand why that term applies to paid helpers. Tell me you see the correlation.

AND, I said POSSIBLY-fake. The commune will not be able to determine whether fake or not… never ever again. You (or any “paid”) could be driven by wallet. We no longer know your goals and we no longer know if you are a MS “plant” or not. There is no longer ANY way… to know what drives your passion.

Look at that fact… from MY angle. Just put yourself in a TRUE DEVOTEE’s shoes. Do you see why I call paid helpers… a contaminant, yet?

I can’t trust you to ever work a bug with me. You’d quit working on it… at capitalism quitting time.

None of you came running to join the Oimo setMotor issue… because it wasn’t an assigned task by your boss. None of you were authorized to put hours into it… and so… none/few of you did.

OMG, I understand DK’s pinging, now. When he pings, he’s assigning tasks to worker-bees. Yuh yuh yuh, I should have seen THAT, long ago. God am I dumb.

Aside: It’s a plugin problem, not an Oimo lib problem. If it IS a lib problem, its because we hacked the lib.

But the workers were/are under “work-orders” to do something else… like get 4.0 ready to “ship” even though the Oimo plugin doesn’t work right.

Yep, that makes sense now. The “paids” hadn’t been work-ordered to work-on the plugin… and so they won’t. They are controlled. They are TOLD when/where to help, and any deviation from orders… is dangerous to the wallet.

How would you expect we “pures” to react to learning about the existence of “paids”? What kind of reaction to that deception/trouble… would you have expected?

[sebavan]

How would you expect we “pures” to react to learning about the existence of “paids”? What kind of reaction to that deception/trouble… would you have expected?

Not like this:

More like this:

[Deltakosh]

I may not have been explicit enough in the past so let me at least use that thread to be clearer:

The team here at Microsoft is composed (so far as we are recruiting. And no this is not another secret because I created sometimes ago a post for it in this very forum but apparently it was not enough) of these good guys:
@sebavan
@bghgary
@trevordev
@sbtron
@PirateJC
@syntheticmagus
@PatrickRyan

The name of the team is Babylon.js and we are focusing on supporting Babylon.js project and the gltf ecosystem

The team was created in in May 2017 (David Catuhe on Twitter: "What a day :) On 5/1, I'll move to "3D for everyone" team at Microsoftto lead our 3D for the Web strategy with #babylonjs")

The creation of that team was obviously a good thing that I announced on my Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn. No secret agenda or conspiracy

The governance of the project is dicted by this policy: Babylon.js/contributing.md at master · BabylonJS/Babylon.js · GitHub

That’s it.

For the sake of it, I gathered some links where (in the old forum) I was mentioning that Microsoft was actively supporting the project:

Professional support for Babylon.js

Playground saved scenes hosed

Please do not use babylonjs-playground.azurewebsites.net

[Wingnut]

Okay, thanks, now we have a few limp rules/policies.

Are these “good guys” allowed/encouraged to be Microsoft product evangelists? Can/Will they try to soft-sell Microsoft products to the commune members?

What guarantees do we have (against it) and what prosecution options are available for those caught doing it?

If our commune-ity texts are legally owned by Microsoft, could you please provide a link to the Microsoft privacy policies that apply to our forum? (thx)

DK- We still need your boss’s name, if not private.

Thanks for the reply and listing of the paids.

I have a joke. Is it a time for one? Might be too soon.

New Team Name: The Whores of Babylon. hahaha. Whore of Babylon - Wikipedia

Ok, that’s just TERRIBLY mean, but REALLY DAMNED FUNNY, HUH? No? unh.

Anyway, I’m going to lighten up… and try to figure out what’s left worth contributing-to, around here. I may have pissed-away 2 years of work… helping capitalists peddle Microsoft products and contributing to a thing I despise… capitalism. I suppose I need to face that moral dilemma and possible duping… soon. * sigh *

Cover your asses, pures. BEWARE showing secret projects… to The Paids. They might try to harvest it, as they are likely monetary opportunists. Resistance is NOT futile.

[Deltakosh]

Are these “good guys” allowed/encouraged to be Microsoft product evangelists? Can/Will they try to soft-sell Microsoft products to the commune members?

Did you ever witness that? They do what the heck they want to do. This forum is a community forum. I pay it with my own money. This forum is not owned/controlled by anyone else

[aFalcon]

I love this forum.

[nasimiasl]

hi so what is BABYLON gltf exactly?
can anyone explain? is it new

[Deltakosh]

Gltf is an open standard for data transmission:

glTF - Runtime 3D Asset Delivery

Babylon.jsis one of the best engine to load gltf files

[aFalcon]

It loads high quality 3D meshes very quickly!

2017 was intro year. 2018 early adoption year. 2019 1st year for widespread production (we hope).

[droggam]

Wow i missed the drama i understand wingnuts concern here but its not my battle
I personally love the devotion and support u guys as a whole give the community…
but with 4.0 everything for me didnt work so i started elsewhere…
But Im currently trying to make a pacman inspired game…
Even though i believe babylonjs is the “future” for alot things…
I too would like be in the team but i doubt im good enough though…
I started website and such i get kind of 100 visitors daily on my devlog =)
So much to do i feel like whatever engine im using its endless and
babylonjs is still kind of a baby imho
cheers everyone =)

[PatrickRyan]

@Wingnut, I completely understand your concerns that there may be people in the community paid to be here while seeming like they are here because they want to be. In today’s age of anonymity and misdirection in social media, finding out people who you thought were one thing and are secretly another can be very unsettling. It’s to that end that I purposely use my real name as my forum alias, my twitter handle, and list right on my LinkedIn page that I work for Microsoft and work directly on Babylon.js and glTF. I started using LinkedIn long before Microsoft acquired it so please don’t read that as me shilling another Microsoft product, just a point of clarity that you can find me without a ton of work (other than the common name). Again, just for transparency,

https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickcryan/
https://twitter.com/PatrickCRyan
https://patrickryan.myportfolio.com/

But I wanted to take some time after reading your thread to digest what you spoke about and join the conversation with my experience with Babylon.js. I’m not here to tell you what to think or feel about anything, just to give you another data point for consideration as you think through your frustration.

I am, oddly enough, the oldest member of the team and am in my second iteration of career path, starting in graphic design and photography and transitioning to game art and real-time rendering. I’ve worked for small companies and large, for profit and not-for-profit, and I can say one thing in all that experience… all companies care about staying relevant and solvent and the successful ones realize they also have to care about the well being of their employees. When I switched from the not-for-profit world to Microsoft, starting over from the bottom of the ladder, I also worried that a giant like Microsoft may treat me as a cog in the machine which leads to employees only doing what they have to for the paycheck. And I was starting out as a contractor, so they didn’t have to invest in me as a long term employee so I thought that fear may be easily realized.

What I found was a team that was passionate about what they were creating, which was HoloLens. We all put in extra hours because we wanted to. I found support and encouragement, as the oldest guy in the room in the contract position, to develop and grow my skills and own what I was passionate about. Our broader team had five pillars that I continue to live by today:

• Create without fear
• Be curious and keep learning
• Lead by doing
• Tell great stories
• We stand together

I found that Microsoft cares about its employees, its community, and its impact in the world. I found a company who pays their employees a good wage and encourages them to give back to causes and charities that are important to them. This article is a little older, but the sentiment is the same today.

I have worked with some great teams at Microsoft and when I was first exposed to Babylon.js I was working for another team and asked to help out with some demos that Babylon.js needed. What I found was a small and scrappy team of engineers who were more than passionate about the project they built… they were committed to making it everything they dreamed it could be. As I helped them outside of my regular work on my team, I saw in them a joy in coming to the office every day and a disbelief that they could work on this project full time rather than finding time outside work to push it forward. There wasn’t someone telling them how to pivot the project to make money or what features they needed to make. They treated every person or entity using Babylon.js as a part of the community whose voice mattered. Whether that is a student learning the engine for the first time, a small team making their first WebGL game, a group in Microsoft using the engine to make their project better, or any other software giant who is collaborating with us on Babylon.js and glTF, everyone has equal footing.

I decided that this was the team I wanted to join and it wasn’t because there was an opening on a job board. My job on this team didn’t exist when I decided that working on Babylon.js was something I wanted to spend my days doing. I made a case for why my expertise would benefit the team and the engine and we were able to convince our organization to move my position permanently to the Babylon.js team.

I can tell you that of all of the good teams I’ve worked with, this one is the best. The members of the team truly take ownership of the work they do and they aren’t doing it because someone told them to. Most every team meeting we have is filled with “I think this would be good for the engine and community and so I’m going after it.” I’ve never witnessed any “we have to do this because our bosses are making us” projects. And I see every member of the team putting in time after hours, on weekends, while they are on vacation, etc. not because they are getting paid to do so but because it’s important to them that something is done or they want to make sure a community member is unblocked.

For me personally, I get “pinged” because @Deltakosh is the most present on our forums and always sees issues first and he wants to make sure that I see that someone needs my help. And I hope you can see from my contributions to the forum that this is something I can spend hours doing for a thread. Responding to and helping the community is always something I do first, before my other work, to make sure that our community members are not blocked by a lack of information. And often times the topics I cover go beyond the boundaries of Babylon.js into creation of assets and how to accomplish tasks that are covered elsewhere in other forums. I could just push our community to other forums with their DCC tool questions, but I feel it’s important that we help them in all aspects of their project. I have even spent time on Skype calls with community members speaking directly to them to help them understand issues or getting feedback from them.

And when the end of the day rolls around and I haven’t gotten to the tasks I wanted to accomplish for the day, I stay late. Or I pick up once I get home. Or I work over the weekend. Not because I am being paid to do it, but because I want to push our work to a high bar and that requires sacrifice. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve worked 20 hour days 7 days a week to get a project ready. And it’s not because I’m being paid to… I get paid the same no matter how many extra hours I put in. And it’s not because my boss told me to. @Deltakosh is my boss and he actively tells me not to put in those kinds of hours. And I commute between 5 and 6 hours a day to come to the office and work with this team. None of that I do because I am punching a time card for my paycheck.

Like everyone else, I earn a living so I can put a roof over my family’s heads and provide what they need. I could do that anywhere, and I have had companies pursue me to bring my expertise to their work. However, I choose to be on the Babylon.js team for the people and the project. I feel ownership over what I put into the project like I hope everyone who is part of the community does. Because my paycheck comes from doing work I love is not something to be ashamed of, it’s something I hope everyone is able to do.

Like I said in the beginning, I understand your distrust of corporate intentions and I have shared some of them in the past. But I hope that hearing of my experience on this team and with this project does give you some insight into at least one of the people who is here working every day to make Babylon.js everything that we think it can be. I can tell you that this is one of the most rewarding experiences I’ve had in my career and I can’t ask for a better group of people to share my days with. The passion, expertise, intelligence, support, and genuine goodness of the group I get to work with is not only something I hope I am always able to experience in my career, but it’s also something that I hope everyone does.

[Deltakosh]

@droggam can you tell me what did not work with you with 4.0? If we can help or improve missing pieces

[JCPalmer]

I did read not this latest entire crap storm , but I think I got the basics.
@Deltakosh, Maybe making the list of Github contributors public would useful at this point.

Last time I looked at it, I saw it was switchable on a person by person basis. I turned it on, and if one went to my profile page you would see it, but all the people are not listed together. There are a couple of people on there for years that I have no idea who they are.

Edit: It is sort of public now for those who enabled it. Had to check from a tablet where I am not logged in to see difference.

[Deltakosh]

All team members are flagged as Microsoft on the repo.

[Wingnut]

@PatrickRyan … thanks for that considerate response. If something good could be said about this situation, that was probably just about right. I hope to gosh that you are not buffalo’d/bedazzled.

You guys are in the hot-seat of a technology that is much bigger and more future-impacting than most can imagine. And, whether you wish it or not, MS corporate futurists WILL notice the coming 3d trends. Just in the AR sunglasses dept alone… we’re talking $$ billions $$ of “influence-BJS” forces.

I really hope you try to instill integrity in each other, and hold your intestinal fortitude ground… when those forces come a-influencing. I fear you won’t be able to, because when corporate throws the switch, you’re going to be surrounded by 100+ more people, including “steerers”… and ya’ll will get caught-up in the $$ excitement $$.

Man, even if you guys were a separate company, and only sub-contracting with MS… that would get you out from under that dreaded overpowered MS umbrella. Do you guys realize how powerful that thing is? Do you know how much unmitigated money that they can throw at things? You guys are sailing in dangerous waters, and you are in the future-aiming cross-hairs of the corporate boat-changing cannon.

If MS “turns on” in the 3D dept, and it’s almost a sure-thing that they will, I think you are destined for a big surprise. You might not even know what hit you. Please maintain your integrity. Thank you for your tactful comments and reassurances, PR.

[Wingnut]

I appreciate the reassurance attempts by others, too. I DO notice them. I’m just scared that the situation could change at the drop of a hat. Deltakosh’s boss (and all bosses above) now has “a say” about BabylonJS, and can put DK into/under a “do it OR ELSE you’re fired/terminated” (loving terms, eh?) ultimatum.

DK assures me that it hasn’t happened… but that doesn’t mean it won’t ever happen. If it does happen, and DK personally dislikes the direction that corporate is OR-ELSING him to go, will his paycheck win, or will BJS win?

Dangerous waters. It is quite likely… that DK’s paycheck will win that decision. The caps have him “over a barrel”, and BJS’s nuts are now firmly clamped in a monetary vise. The BJS “affiliation with Microsoft” DOES now exist, DK… whether you agree or not. I hope someday you see what you’ve done. The Microsoft financial backing may initially look nice and innocent, but it has fangs that can kill you with little hesitation.

Main thing is… it is exposed now. BJS users have been warned, at least SOME of them. Hopefully the news of the dangers… will spread, and BJS users can cover their butts. What a shame this had to happen.

BJS now has the potential to become the Walmart shovel… breaks 2 days after first-use… due to caps removing quality to maximize profits, un-repairable, no parts available, lands in the dump on day 3. It’s what caps do. They/It harvest/mow crop-portunities SO LOW/SHORT… that their harvester blades chop the dirt.

A little note to capitalism: I hate you, capitalism, and your terrorist invention… cost-of-living. I WILL get a cease’n’desist order against you… for monetary discrimination, domestic terrorism, and felony extortion. Count on it. You have ruined enough things that I love. (How’s that for on-topic off-topic?)

I also appreciate being allowed freedom-of-speech… in this freedom-of-speech, no-topic-police thread.

[JohnK]

In an alternative universe

Ningwut, I was as shocked as you were to find that KD and the core team just look after BJS as a hobby for free! We are using BJS in a major project and now find that it run by a bunch of hippy do-gooders. In my life time my interests have changed from fishing, to skiing and to motor cars. What’s to stop this lot from doing the same where would that leave our last three years work? Even worse what if its some ideological plot, draw us into using BJS then find we can only carry on using it if we subscribe to their utopian nightmare.

With no formal support structure if KD leaves or changes his mind after some deeply meaningful ‘trip’ there will be no structure to appoint someone else in his place to ensure that BJS carries on with the same ethos as it has now. Main thing is… it is exposed now. BJS users have been warned, at least SOME of them. Hopefully the news of the dangers… will spread, and BJS users can cover their butts. What a shame this had to happen.

Now we know that the core team are part of ‘the other’ we can keep an eye on them to check what they are upto, cannot let hippy do-gooders get a grip. As my old Gran used to say “All the world’s dangerous except me and thee, and I am not too sure about thee.”

Keep the good fight, KohnJ

---

With love from this world
JohnK

[Wingnut]

Cute. But you don’t need an alternative universe. Just remove the tumor call capitalism… that grew on your (“your” != own-able, though, not even little pieces of it) planet in THIS universe. Capitalism is a man-made thing… its founders long-ago dead of old age.

It’s a church of competing and a con/sham… not part of “life” and not “just the way it is” (self-lies/blinders I hear often from belly-ups/buy-ins). Essentially, it is AmWay (American Way). Capitalism is the #1 world problem, having killed millions (and still killing) via attrition. It uses the world’s most powerful terrorizing device - “cost of living”.

Just remember that… in “this world”, ONLY capitalism volunteer/forced joiners… use economies and/or do tug-o-warring over paper false-idols (money) and over paper false-empowerments (entitles of ownership). ONLY capitalists!

ALL other living creatures on the entire planet… (in THIS world/universe)… don’t use money, don’t honor/use ownership, don’t use locks, don’t witness widespread servitude/OR-ELSING, and don’t put blockades called price tags on survival supplies. AND, they don’t fill up their dumps with badly-made, non-repairable crap products.

You never have to worry about a hippy do-gooder. They would NEVER participate in the US vs. THEM wars over false idols. They want to love/adopt one another (commune-ity), not bill each other to death. Hippy do-gooders treat fellow humans… like they treat their pets… well hugged, well fed, good health, nice shelter, and regarded as their best friend.

With love, standing BESIDE the pyramid scheme that capitalists built and condone and somehow joined… standing with all the other non-economy-using creatures of THIS WORLD, laughing at the caps and their crushing-its-foundation, rat-racing, get-a-leg-up, orders-barking, people-stacking structure that they cheer-for…

Clean Guy

[droggam]

@Deltakosh I asked for help back then but none could help me if I remember correct it was
Missing Babylon.GUI class… in 4.0.0.0 …
So i couldnt build the gui anymore i wanted to rewind to 3.3 but i was tired, looking for answers.
Im kind of super bizzy nowadays, and have patience maybe it is fixed in the future?!
The plus with babylonjs is i can theoretically make dungeon crawler and have people play it in the browser on my website that is why i liked it so much in the beginning…
later problem was more like future with install free interfaces etx I like it much
But i think Babylonjs has alot to keep up with rn.

[Deltakosh]

Woot! I may have missed that post. Can you point me to it? I will gladly help you fix that issue

[droggam]

Dk
Yes I dont remember but do you know any prototypes on the playground that i can try learn from…
I want like a simple dungeon crawler sort of…
I abandoned angular a bit and worked the last times in the playground.
index33.html:138 Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property ‘AdvancedDynamicTexture’ of
undefined
at createScene (index33.html:138)

var advancedTexture = BABYLON.GUI.AdvancedDynamicTexture.CreateFullscreenUI(“UI”);
this is the line in code that doesnt work with 4.00

[Deltakosh]

Well this is quite vague

if you read french, you can find here a Wolfenstein 3D done with bjs:

David Boissier / canardstein-js

I know that @sebavan was working on an english translation but not sure this is done

[sebavan]

I have the first pass translation @PatrickRyan is reviewing it atm.

[droggam]

@Deltakosh ok i can currently solve it by using the cdn links
But it keeps loading the 3/3 version yet
what am i doin wrong?

[Deltakosh]

to get the latest you have to use: https://preview.babylonjs.com/gui/babylon.gui.min.js

[droggam]

Well i found temporary fix and go with the cdn links for now and it works but
the textures for skybox complains about cors acess missing, if i link it to babylonjs skybox on github…
But Im trying another thing that i need ask is about hitboxes boxcolliders and rigidbodies
I always hit the box with my sword even if not even close?
So maybe if you could make a pack with skyboxes? to download i tried fork it but no success yet
cheers mate.

[Deltakosh]

You should start a new thread (with a repro) to get more answers
Regarding cors issue, we have this doc which explain the problem and the solutions: Using External Assets - Babylon.js Documentation

[droggam]

Well Im doing good @Deltakosh,

[SometimesIMakeThings]

Hahaha kinda late, and I can’t say I feel strongly one way or the other about all of this, but I did really enjoy reading all of your “power to the people” speeches in any case @Wingnut! It’s always good to see you here!

[Wingnut]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJJO2q9tjxI

March 7th publishing date on the video. They made that video to counter-act my tough-love brutal truths. Coooool. They might have even put-in some weekend hours! (Wingy faints.)

“Trust in BabylonJS Inc, because WE say you should.” Yeah, it is just like the commercials from the “big boys” of mercantilism. Impressive, but would have been MORE powerful if each team member was cuddling a puppy.

We know, though. Community is not first.

1. Paychecks are first, because they can take the food and well-being from your families.

2. BJS comes second, because the program is also important and should be corporate-influence-free.

3. Third… is likely personal convictions of paid team members - what THEY believe, what THEY want to happen (with possible aspirations of expansion that leads to bigger paychecks and less paycheck-threat).

4. Community MIGHT get this 4th slot. YAY!

It is propaganda, but I’m honored and impressed that ya’ll are trying to escape the crosses that you’ve been nailed-to. It’s good to see your Redmond-owned faces.

Really, you have two distrust issues at-hand.

1. The integrity and devotion of the paids.
2. BJS being under the “change it or else you’re fired” MS empowerment over Deltakosh.

For #1… I don’t think there’s any hope. Their paychecks are more important than anything else… because of the cost-of-living terrorism threat upon them. It’s not their fault or anything… it just is. Their ancestors didn’t destroy the wage-slavery system/competer’s church… back when it was smaller and less bought-into. And so, these guys were born-into wage-slavery, unless they were born set-for-life as the child of a powerful profiteer.

Born-set-for-life folks… are real rare, as we all know. None of the paids are set-for-life’s, or else they wouldn’t be suckling from a Microsoft-owned feeding-nipple.

Now, #2… is going to take a signed and legal letter from Willie Gates… showing us a promise of “hands off BJS” and “no OR ELSE threatening its lead author or its team”. But even that can’t be trusted, because of Willie’s freedom to “change his mind” (reverse gear). Nobody is going to legally bind his ass… to ANYTHING. With the power of HIS lawyers… nothing will stick.

“MicroSoft BabyonJS - a name YOU can TRUST for YOUR entire family!” heh. What a video. heh. Edit-in a few pieces of puppies, hot dogs, apple pies, and chevrolet’s… maybe some laughing babies… and then ya got a REAL piece of propaganda pablum.

It would interesting to know if any of the paids… objected to the reason-for/making-of the video.

Well my fellow pures, the “theys” are definitely scrambling to wipe the poop from their browned reputations. This is good. But they were probably “ordered” to participate in the video. Ordering and fulfilling orders… is what a corporation does. If you want some competer’s church coupons, you WILL march to the beat of the boss’s drums and “stay in-line” and “under control”.

We all know the power of OR ELSE (extortion). It is the creed of capitalist parents when they nest-kick their kids into “out there” land. All the way thru childhood… the policy is share share share. At age 18, 180-degree policy-reversal to fight fight fight. Puts the kids in utter shock. Want a girlfriend? Want a car? Want a home? Want enjoyments? Want low-stress from attacking cost-of-living survival-supplies terrorism? Better march for the church… do its bidding… stay in-line and under-control, or else.

And ONLY AmWay free-marketeers coupons are accepted in Amway survival-supply stores. Only FM greenbacks allowed. No competition allowed in “What’s your favorite type of money?”. Only capitalist greenbacks are accepted as “legal tender”. No Lutheran redbacks, no Catholic bluebacks, no Kiwanis Club orangebacks, no Uncle Wingy’s purplebacks. The free-marketeers got the “exclusive” on the type of coupons allowed in survival supply stores… used to surmount the blockades/locks called price tags (a capitalism-invented thing).

Sweet control mechanism, eh? They got that “legal tender” division… well tied-up… nuts in vise.

Gosh I wish Willie would read this and own-up to how very correct I am, about the whole situation. Maybe I would get a louder microphone… and with his help, perhaps we could get this mess cleaned-up, worldwide. Let’s see if Mr. Gates really cares about community… and posts some promises and assurances here… in TWC. Let’s see how much MS cares about community concerns, because this is a fine one to test-upon. ymmv.

This might get interesting, now that the paids have raised a shield. This whole situation is definitely going to make the paids think a bit more about being as clean as they can be… while operating in a sewer.

We MIGHT even get some protection for DK… from MS OR ELSE-ing his paycheck. But a promise from Willie Gates… is not easy to get, and likely that dam would NOT hold-back very much “legal water”. Willie can change his mind… and that option will be included in any letter-of-promise that we little-pure folk could EVER get. We haven’t got much hope… against that kind of power/influence.

So, here we are… stuck in limbo. What will a super-fan do… now that BJS Inc is happening? I dunno, but that’s MY problem. MS put its big fat foot down… right between me and my MANY BJS friends/acquaintances. All I really want to do… is light that foot on-fire and celebrate its crumble-to-ashes. Be well, guys. Interesting video!

[Deltakosh]

For the records, we created that video last year for internal purposes to explain to other MS groups how we (bjs team) work. Then I considered it is something we can be proud of and so we should share it

[Wingnut]

Roger that, thanks for the correction.

You certainly got a handful of wildcat when Wingy joined the parade, huh?

I really don’t like being the prick that I am currently being. If you look carefully, I have a problem with a “system” and not with people. I HAVE TO remove the make-up and nylons and lipstick that capitalism has adorned-itself-with… before ya’ll can see the situation that you’ve gotten yourselves into.

I HAVE TO peel-off the self-bullshitting, and push your noses into the dog poop piles that you created.

Sure, you’re not going to get this kind of reaction from other BJS users. They’re barely awake and they’re marching-away for the church of competing… being good little “do as you’re toads”. Ya got no critical thinkers like me… laying around here. Even if ya did, they wouldn’t voice it on the forum, due to the fears imposed by topic-police (thank goodness there are few/no topic police nearby).

I guess… maybe… this is not a place for anti-capitalism-ists. If I may quote a PM from @jerome without his permission… he loosely called this rant… “a philosophical necessity”. Yep, that’s exactly what it is.

The problem isn’t solved, but it’s PLENTY defined, yes? Not sure, though, as I am getting some PM’s that say “I don’t understand”. I guess… users… feel free to ask me questions about what this is and why it is necessary. It is VERY MUCH like a “We don’t want your stinky factory in our town” protest. Try to keep smiling… this is a battle of principles.

[Wingnut]

Hi again. Since this series of posts has seemingly evolved into “teach a capitalist how to investigate what they joined”… let’s talk about ownership.

First, take notice of how many times USA folk say “my”. My kids, my house, my husband, my car, my lawyer, my doctor, my divorce, my family, my yard, my state, my country. EVERY SINGLE USAGE of “my”… CAN and SHOULD be replaced with “this” or “the”. To quickly sum the reason for this “my my my addiction”, it is because owning things… is empowerment, and USA folks are nearly empowerments-starved-to-death. It might be better or worse in other countries. I just haven’t been allowed to study those other countries and cultures.

Possibly, it is worst in the USA… because its people are SO VERY CLOSE-TO having empowerment, and yet so very far away. Almost all news commenting… is blocked by “register” and “login” or join FacePlant or Twittles. Americans REALLY REALLY want their controllers to hear their words, but the sheer thickness of the dark clouds that control us… make them nearly impenetrable. Thick bureaucracy! It is almost impossible to get a channel/message to the sun. (It is probably similarly impossible to get a message/channel/audience with laying-in-the-sun Willie Gates).

Ownership… what is it? Is it legal?

If you haven’t noticed by now, ALL items on this planet… all manufactured items, all constructed items, all food and lifeforms, are made from “Earth materials”. EVERY SINGLE ITEM on the planet… is made of Earth materials.

Now I am not an expert in ownership laws, but I am quite sure that the original creators/owners of ANYTHING (including Earth materials) MUST BE consulted, and legal permission given, before ANYTHING can be deemed own-able/en-title-able. Original owners MUST be consulted and permissions given.

Was ANYONE given permission by the creators of Earth materials… to wrap a border around an area of the planet, and claim it to be “owned” by a “group”? (somenation.org)

Was anyone given permission to claim ownership-empowerment over ANY “synthesized-from-Earth-materials” item?

No. The LEGAL truth is… NOTHING can be owned. NOTHING is a my-my-my. I don’t care if we have wedged illegal ownership laws onto the USA’s law-books or not, those laws are null and void. Nobody consulted the original owners of Earth materials… to find out if anything COULD be owned.

The self-lies that the caps are doing… regarding ownership, bordering/fencing lands, denying people survival supplies unless they have free-marketeer/AmWay coupons (money)… is nothing short of disgusting.

Now go have YOUR cup of coffee, or YOUR lunch-break, or YOUR cigarette, and YOUR morning doughnut, at YOUR job for YOUR paycheck, which you need in “order” to buy some more YOUR stuff, and think about the giant lie that you have bought-into - the lie of ownership. That propaganda/lie has been blatantly shoved down your throats and crammed up your butts, because without it, capitalism’s “ordering systems” cannot operate what-so-ever.

I wonder if Dk ever refers to HIS team as… MY guys… MY team… MY people. hmm.

(I’m just waiting-around while MY mechanic fixes the tire on MY Hippy-Do-Gooder Anti-Capitalism Roadshow tour bus. I will be coming to YOUR town… as soon as I somehow gather enough free-marketeering coupons to satisfy MY tire-repair mechanic.)

[syntheticmagus]

Hi Wingnut,

Very interesting assessment! The debate over the nature and validity of private property is actually one of the oldest discourses in western philosophy. (I’m guessing non-western philosophers tackled this too; I’m just not as familiar with that history, unfortunately.) A lot of different thinkers from across many, many centuries have thought and written about this. If you’re interested in the topic and haven’t read them already, some of these might make for some fun reading.

[JohnK]

MAYBE…a special Path3d grower… COULD tilt the normals on the corners… by itself… and we would have a .bankingIntensity property. The amount of car upVector roll-tilt… would be based-upon the amount of x and z change… between current point and next point. Sideways (lateral) inertia calculations.

Tried it and it was too complex for me.

I’m not sure HOW I will manually program banking

Neither was I sure so spent some time having a go and came up with a system where you could specify things like banking (I call it lean) and you can get it to turn at the same time. Hope the following PGs amuse. Next thing is to produce some explanation of how to use it. Tight bends still cause a problem.

In this PG the ‘passenger’ (vertical box) in the ‘carriage’ (bigger horizontal box) can independently look around as the carriage follows the track.

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#SQFG0Q

Now same track with normals and binormals shown https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#SQFG0Q#1

Exactly same track; this time carriage leans and turns according to the data built into the track, the ‘freight’ in the carriage moves with the carriage. https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#SQFG0Q#2

Or something more complex. (Here you can see the issues with tight bends) https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#SQFG0Q#3

[Wingnut]

Hey, thanks for the links. This link you provided… feels really nice to me, but it’s packed-up with too much “Jesus stuff” for my tastes. I wish the same analysis existed, but from the hippy tree-hugger, deer-hugger, bug-hugger, people-hugger perspective. My tiny group of anti-caps don’t care about HOW ownership should work. We just want it eliminated, and know that is the good’n’right step. If the mosquitoes and birds and deer and trees aren’t using ownership, humans shouldn’t use it either. Stay natural.

Anyone who has spent ANY serious time in the forests… knows there is a “spirit” there, and it “sure-as-hell” hasn’t shown to be any-what related to any mainstream religions. Yet its “voice” is much louder than any Bible-thumping pulpit-camping preacher.

I think “custodianship” and “stewardship” are VERY NEEDED, as we move forward… lifting the caps’ faces from “the snort” piles. These terms/roles - Custodianship and Stewardship (call them C&S ?)… DO NOT allow the blockading of those resources… from others. C&S DOES allow the temporary blockading of those who intend to DAMAGE the item being cared-for. Laws would still exist… for Team Earth resources (all Earth things, living or inanimate). The police division of Team Earth’s all-volunteer work-forces… WILL enforce STRICT laws about damaging an Earth resource.

This is because the capitalists will have FINALLY LEARNED the same thing that the USA military has learned LONG AGO: To hurt ONE member of “team”… hurts ALL of “team”. (I was active duty U.S. Air Force from 1976-1985). I loved it. It was a commune… and we all took care of one another… central team… altruists… watching -out for the other guy first, and then checking on self… later. Capitalists, being programmed to be competers… have almost no concept of “other person first” unless you are talking about their nation-unto-selves household (the emBANKed fortification they use in the US/THEM, BUYER/SELLER wars… that they fight with each other out in the cow pasture.)

Side Note: Capitalists WILL place a fellow “us” above themselves. The other person MUST be labeled as an “us” (like a family member)… and it helps if that other person is located/labeled-as “in here”. “Out there” and “thems” are rarely cared-for before/above a capitalist competer. Competing does not work that way. Them’s are harvested without remorse. Harvest, or BE harvested, ya know? When a cap is asked about the well-being of people on the other side of a capitalist’s yard-fence/blinders-fence, they often answer “It’s not my job” or “It’s not my problem”.

---

I could tell you a very sad story about how MANY MANY children decided to leave the centralized farm house and centralized feed-bowl of well-being therein. They were lured out of the house by “bling” and empowerments-luring… and by the seeking of “being normal”. They pitched their nation-unto-selves (family-unto-selves?) pup-tents… out in the cow pasture… and started the US vs. THEM wars and tug-o-warring festival. The false idol wars.

They haven’t returned to the central farmhouse yet, and gramma is REAL WORRIED, and the pasture is getting bloody from their intense tug-o-warring games. They are SO SO deluded. It’s embarrassing, disgusting… and… so sad. It makes gramma cry a lot.

---

Economies suffer from a thing I call spirography… (what goes around, comes around). Remember spirographs? No matter which way you would start rotating the gears/pen, the pen would ALWAYS, eventually, return to its starting location. (Because the tip of each spiroflower petal (person)… is a loop, not a point). Lets say one direction is GIVING, and the other direction is BILLING/INVOICING. First, lets look at the goes-around-comes-around of billing. The more wages capitalists (caps) ask for, the more the caps make their own cost of living go up, which causes a need to ask for raises, which… etc etc. All issued billings/demandings, spiro around and around until it returns to the issuer. Some call this a “self-feeding machine” and they always blow up.

The very same goes-around-comes-around spirography thing happens to all “issued” giving/sharing/love. It’s handed-on, loop, loop, loop, till it returns to its issuer. No matter which way (giving or demanding) you start rotating the gears and the spirograph pen, the pen ALWAYS, eventually, returns to its starting place. Spirography… what goes around, comes around. So, as long as “we” condone and allow price tags, time-carding, and billing, we will continue to have a cost of living to “fend off”. Outlaw price tags (blockades to survival supplies) and poverty somehow evaporates… completely. Strange how that works, huh?

To illustrate spirography in another way, picture a round dinner table with 8 or so people with plates of food in front of them. There are three spirographic actions that can take place. One… is ‘idle spirography’ where nobody reaches across the table to another’s plate whatsoever. Lets leave that condition alone. Another thing that can happen, is someone reaches across the table at some angle, and TAKES (bills/demands) some food from another’s plate. That ‘robbed’ person is now in fear of not enough food, and likely will reach across at another angle and take some from another’s plate. The newly robbed person takes some from another’s plate. Each person begins looping the billing around the table, and the billing, just like the spirograph pen, eventually returns to the issuer of the first billing. Again, the billing is handed on and on because each person (spiroflower petal tip) is a LOOP, and not a point. I call this ebb spirography… the handing-on of billings/demandings.

Now, in the opposite spiroflow… let’s say someone starts off reaching across the dinner table to put some of their food onto another’s plate. The receiver of this giving gets NO fear, and there is a pretty good chance that the receiver of the food gift will see that they now have too much food, and reach across the table and place food onto another’s plate. And just like the spirograph pen, it eventually returns back to its initial issuer. I think you get the theory and point of this. I call this flow spirography… the handing-on of giving/love.

The dreaded debate between human nature and learned behavior gets involved here. For these spirograph theories… one probably needs to ask oneself if humans are more likely to share things (commune-ity), or more likely to hoard things (ownership). And I think abundance is involved, and so is perceived shortages. I’ve done some tests on local wildlife here in the UP of Michigan, and as best I can tell, when there is plenty of food, the animals share. When the plate goes empty, the fears increase, and the animals compete.

---

Sorry, TMI… but what the hell, I don’t mind taking a moment to do a critical-thinking deep-dive, between BJS renderingFrames.

No Willie Gates post in TWC yet, huh? This might be a LONG wait… for Microsoft to prove that they care about community. If they do, Windows OS will become “pay if you can” immediately, and Willie Gates will help me, you, our community, and the other 78 anti-capitalism-ists on the planet… stomp that thing back to “level”.

C’mon Willie… join us in doing what’s right. There are things that can be built-into Windows… to promote money-less communes, and your machine needs to fully power WikiPedia forever. Might as well buy/manage the U.S. postal system, make them the managers of IP domains (anyone can have a hundred of them for free). WikiPedia should be merged with the public libraries, and we need to get all books in digital form… so start designing library data-gathering robots.

Oh, let’s see… we’ll need the new TV network… World Needs TV… always begging for volunteers to help with Team World’s largest problems. Um… we’ll be vine-ripening in the orchards and groves, so no cropping, no picking, no shaking… and we must wait for the food to “fall” like the season’s name tells us. Max nutrition comes when vine-ripened and not trucked. Not trucked, so the people must come to the food, and less food trucked to the people. We need fast rail (free, of course).

Same with meat… no eating animals until they have died of old age or other unexpected reasons.

No barring wildlife from fallen foods. Share the food with the deer and squirrels and bugs.

All advertisers and money wranglers will have nothing to do in our new Team Earth… so I hope they don’t mind putting-in a little fall-net work in our new WIDESPREAD groves and orchards. It’s much more enjoyable work than your old jobs of peddling crap-products and lies.

All worksites are all-volunteer, and will essentially be carnivals and festivals. The objective is to make people “get-to” go to work, instead-of “have-to” go to work. Worksites will be VERY fun with no set hours and not a single “dead-line”, no demented terms/phenomena such as “fired” or “terminated”, or any other OR-ELSing. Never put/leave anyone over a barrel, behind an 8-ball, or sucking hind tit. (heh)

World Needs TV will ASK for help… and we’ll be concentrating only on necessities in the beginning, not luxuries. All current luxuries will be put into the Team Earth Enjoyments Repository to be shared equally by all, and cared-for by all. Intentionally mistreat a Team Earth resource, and you go to jail.

But jail is not like ANY jail you have EVER seen. It’s more like “Hey, let’s not damage Team Earth resources” reminder school. There won’t be any robbery… nothing is owned, and you can requisition ANYTHING from Team Earth supplies division, by showing just the SLIGHTEST of justification in your requisition form.

And after we assemble this HIGHLY-loving, very fair, well-within-Christian-guidelines, logic-based resources-based system… we will be VERY VERY proud of it. If Earth IS a space craft… step #1… crew must get-along with each other. This is why StarFleet… abolished money/ownership.

We all know what must be done. Willie Gates CAN help us make it happen, but he must sacrifice his monetary empire… yet use his OTHER empowerments (Microsoft reputation and products)… to help us get this “good and right” thing… done.

Does he REALLY care about commune-ity? We’ll wait here and see. We have called-out to him. His team members are nearby. Will any of them risk their paychecks… to show Willie our extremely-large community concern? Microsoft software products are very widespread. It is a MASSIVELY-powerful microphone, and a way to wire-together the “have-a-say” system, the “Everyone is a member of Team Earth government” feature. Does he care about community ENOUGH… to help us out?

hmm. C’mon “Workspace Willie” ! Let’s GO! Lots of children are getting crushed on the bottom layer of the capitalism pyramid scheme. Let’s level it. Upper layers are “heads in the clouds” and can’t see the lower layers. World Health Org numbers for preventable child-under-5 deaths… ATROCIOUS! PLEASE help us, if you can! (thx)

Wingnut… founder… lone member-of…

MaStars – Mothers Against Stuff That Ain’t Right
Anti-Capitalism-ists (system fighters, not people fighters)
Michigan USA

[brianzinn]

not sure another opinion is really needed, but will add one anyway! i am one of the “free” helpers, too:)
I really enjoy spending my time in the forums and working on the project without really being concerned if anybody is employed to do so, because it’s absolutely amazing the good things BJS can bring to the world. I’m not talking about video games, but educational tools, apps without permissions (PWA), XR to the masses, etc. i’ve known for a good while that the BabylonJS team was growing with Microsoft team members, but I still see that as a good thing. Lots of great projects are sponsored. Microsoft has opened up so much in the last few years embracing open source. Obviously part of that corporate direction is for gltf model support, but isn’t it great to have such fantastic support (I think the best WebGL support that exists) for an open standard format? I think MOST of the changes are driven from requests in the forum instead of a board room. How many times have people asked for something and got a PR within a few hours?

hmm. C’mon “Workspace Willie” ! Let’s GO! Lots of children are getting crushed on the bottom layer of the capitalism pyramid scheme. Let’s level it. Upper layers are “heads in the clouds” and can’t see the lower layers. World Health Org numbers for preventable child-under-5 deaths… ATROCIOUS! PLEASE help us, if you can! (thx)

The Bill & Melinda Gates foundation has given billions and billions of dollars for healthcare, education and ending global poverty. It feels a bit unfair to ask if he cares about the community, if that is what you are trying to say. His foundation is much more noble and important than even BabylonJS!

Also, with the permissive Apache license there is nothing preventing a person/group to take the software and go another direction. that would remove the negative things you are mentioning, but then it would lose some amazing people and momentum.

I do agree with things you say as well, so I hope the team continue steering the project direction at their own free will. trust you and the community will keep that in check and hold the team accountable

[Wingnut]

The Bill & Melinda Gates foundation has given billions and billions of dollars for healthcare, education and ending global poverty.

Hi BZ!

It’s a desperate situation. I’ll beg ANYONE for help. Powerful capitalists have a say in the world, seeing they are worshiped. They are the ONLY people with power/say, these days. The pope (and quite a pile of other morality leaders, religious and not) already condemned capitalism. Caps yawned and kept on doing it, full-throttle. That’s… a serious addiction… when THAT happens. See-no-evil, hear-no-evil, speak-no-evil. “There’s nothing wrong with making a good profit” is their guiding creed, yet I can show them well over 10,000 things wrong with making a “good” profit. They won’t hear me. “nuh uh” festival.

Besides, where do you think the Gates Foundation got that “billions and billions”? Possibly from their harvester? Possibly they helped cause the poverty that they now attempt to soothe? That community-wellbeing-providing money was sucked/mowed off the planet, and put into the Microsoft emBANKment.

Side-learn: “Ordering” is an enjoyment that many people… easily get addicted-to, ESPECIALLY ordering servants in restaurants… to cook/fetch them food… OR ELSE THEY’RE FIRED! I call it “King-for-a-day”… but it’s more like “king for a moment, many times each day”. Being a king, ordering servants to build you meals, toys, toilet paper, boats, cars, campers, etc, and ordering labor to paint your house and do your lawns pretty… fix your sewers and cars and other dirty things… is HIGHLY addictive (remember the empowerments starvation I described in a previous post). Ordering… is widespread within capitalism. It’s what they do. Even if the pope tells them to stop because it is disgustingly immoral and illogical and people/Earth-resources-damaging… caps can’t stop. It’s exactly the same as trying to tell a cocaine addict that cocaine is unhealthy. It doesn’t matter, they can’t stop. Caps can’t stop ordering… in multiple ways.

isn’t it great to have such fantastic support

I’m waiting patiently to see if we commune folk HAVE his support or not. Some members of his paid team… have claimed in a video… that community comes first. We’ll see. Our cause (my cause) is a good one. Capitalism is #1 world problem, and it is 100% the reason for this current, seriously-pending, and yet-unsolved problem in the BJS community.

This problem… my issue… is likely to be “blown off” by the local capitalists… as they habitually label everything with “Everything is fine” labels (rose-colored glasses). I’ve been watching their blindering/blow-it-off tactics/maneuvering… for most of my life. “Everything is fine” labeling is the way caps blow-off things that they don’t want to face-up-to. Formally called “complacency” or “forsaking”… (not giving a crap about anything except profit/paychecks)

I’ve done a crap-load of work for BJS. Will BJS do a little bit of work… for Team Earth? Help with a little louder microphone? Maybe a “hands-off-BJS and its paid team” letter, at minimum?

We’ll see. The community has a problem. Let’s see if “community is first” as their paid video-makers claim. Is the Gates Foundation willing to do NON-monetary help… using their OTHER power instead? We’ll soon know if “community first” was crock-of-shit, or true.

We don’t need to help the poor… IF the caps would quit ALLOWING and/or PUSHING people toward falling into poverty (via continuously-rising cost-of-living). No lifting is needed when no falling happened. That big pile of MS money… contributed to poverty and falling.

I don’t want money. I want Bill/foundation to decide if/not they think I am correct about all this, and to recognize the giant rift they caused in our BJS commune, and PUBLICLY own-up to ALL OF IT, if he/they agree. Let’s see if he notices how HIS involvement in BJS… caused this community member… to have no say/power about BJS directions (or world directions) and cap-involvements.

Will the caps yet again win this battle, because commune-folk have no say/power? Is community the boss of capitalism, or is capitalism the boss of community? We’ll soon find out.

trust you and the community will keep that in check and hold the team accountable

That’s what we are trying to do right here and now. Unfortunately, it appears that we pures have already lost that power/say. Paychecks win. Servitude wins. Capitalism wins. Normal, and disgusting.

Not sure another opinion is really needed, but will add one anyway! i am one of the “free” helpers, too

Hey, thanks for being a “pure”! Comments ALWAYS welcomed/needed (even by paids). And no hurry. TWC operates at critical-thinking speeds, slow ironing-out of wrinkles. The capitalism time-card-marching system… is completely irrelevant here in TWC. The LAST thing we want to allow the free marketeers to attempt here… is a hurried “please move-on”. Nope, this capitalism pressure cooker won’t be blown-off or labeled as “everything is fine”… until it is properly addressed and answered-up-for. They’ll probably get violent… start attempting some “ordering”.

It would be sweet if a Redmond-area newspaper… republished the pertinent TWC posts… starting at first presentation. If the Gates Foundation and MS won’t take a stance on capitalism HERE, then maybe they will own-up to the truth about capitalism… to THEIR local community.

I’ve only seen Windows Willie a few times on TV and videos, but, he seems like a sweetheart (just like Deltakosh). I think he’s one of us. But he has an internal conflict to deal-with… before he can/will climb aboard our commune cause. He has to own-up that the claims that I have made here in TWC… are reasonably accurate, or even that he understands this situation. Will his heart win? Or will his company win? It’s going to be a sweet time of reckoning. I think he’ll land in Hippy Do-Gooderville… where I will personally hug him until snot squirts out of his schnoz!

All he has to do… is point to this thread… and publicly say “There…are the answers to the world’s largest problems”. Suddenly… we’re on our way to a better world, with a MUCH louder microphone. A Microsoft Microphone!

Perhaps add-in the new Windows “have a say” system… no-login, no-join, no-censoring, no-charge super-chat/super-voting. Then we have a ROCKET-propelled Microsoft Microphone (with its loud-speaker aimed towards the abolishing of economies/competing, of course). Allow CSS chat-styles and “rooms” and send html OBJECT elements to other chatters, so you have a multimedia storytelling system, too. This multimedia chat/storytelling… should be more popular than evening TV-watching… by… 2025… if done right/free. No ads, and no streaming across it. Long-distance streaming is a luxury and thus it loads-down the internet and life. Send the HTML OBJECT element (with src url), that asks/orders the remote browser… to get the media from the web. Never send the media itself… across the HavAsay system. Allow full/partial gagging of any user… by receiver (to prevent ad/porn-sprayers from spamming a chat/voting room/group). FUN! Noble/No-Bull.

Thanks for the comments. Keep 'em coming.

[droggam]

Keep up the steam =)

[Wingnut]

Aww… THANK YOU, @droggam! Unfortunately, I think these words have fallen on deaf ears.

Christian-ish microphones simply have no power/volume. We’ll keep waiting, I guess.

Your simple words mean ‘the world’ to me (wonderfully-welcomed) right now, because I’m feeling quite alone and scared. I could have 100 capitalist rifle-scope cross-hairs trained-on (aimed-at) my my my skull, right now.

It is VERY common for angry US-THEM war participants… to shoot the messenger… because of the message they deliver. They don’t necessarily have particular-hate for us Christian-ish Commies. They hate EVERYTHING (from so much time participating in “the wars”), and we CC’s are just another punching target.

[droggam]

@wingnut it just pains me that u feel like u are betrayed and spent all this time., and
i dont know how to say it =)
“See-no-evil, hear-no-evil, speak-no-evil”
its like secret message uumm .

[Wingnut]

Thanks. I don’t really feel betrayed. Just lonely. It’ll pass.

We need to give our friends a little more time… to pick-up their jaws from the floor.

Theory: The Great Pyramids are there… for a reason. It is to tell us all… that in THIS classroom, we are here to learn about pyramiding. It takes some time and love.

[droggam]

yes and maybe its evolution for projects to be more formal established, within a bigger brand at some point…
Babylon maybe grew up and not funny baby horse anymore…
I think its cool being part of it I just wish I had more time coding and working
so many new things on my schedule =)

[Wingnut]

yes and maybe its evolution for projects to be more formal established, within a bigger brand at some point…
Babylon maybe grew up and not funny baby horse anymore…

Are you pro-capitalism, then? I can’t determine.

Formal establishment can happen without letting disgusting capitalism… contaminate the project.

Also, “growing up” == leaving behind child-like tug-o-warring games, and leaving behind “Look at us, ain’t we something” PR-crap.

“Mom, mom, look what I did, look at ME go! Ain’t I wonderful? You sure must love ME!”.

It’s time to leave behind the affirmation addiction gotten from mom sticking our art onto the fridge… with decorative refrigerator magnets. Yes, let’s all grow up… and stop the tug-o-wars right here and now. Time for the deluded children to stop hugging the appalling teddy bear… called capitalism.

Time to stop buying dragon-fire thermal protection blankets… from the dragon. (protective emBANKing and catastrophic-bill insurance). The dragon causes the “cost-of-living”, and caps THANK IT for selling them protection from the fire. They don’t realize that they are feeding the dragon, making it more powerful, which causes the need for them to buy thicker thermal blankets… DAILY!

Branding? It’s just as painful to living things as it ALWAYS was. It burns like hell, and it is to be avoided at all costs. Stay free, stay natural, don’t sign aboard ANYTHING that isn’t loving. Capitalism/competer’s church is FAR FAR FAR from loving.

Always remember, if the deer and bugs and birds and squirrels don’t do it, humans shouldn’t either. Not natural.

[droggam]

well wingnut this is coding page… i cant discuss further here,
Im stuck in the same wheel as all else and u, just trying my best =)
im happy with my website… also that people share knowledge but its really hard for me to know
if people share anymore… i came to point where im stuck again, trying my best to
donate to cancer etx and sharing knowledge is most important to me.
but i dont know if im welcome anymore when rebelling with u sort of… it wasnt my intent reallly =)
And im w orried if i have to quit coding games cuz idk if i can make any sucess i found other things that do better in code even normal job so imm confused rn

[Wingnut]

this is coding page… i cant discuss further here

Sure you can. This is a no-topic-police zone. You can talk about anything, here.

But no sweat, D. I thought you liked “steam”. You had a pile of “maybe” in your earlier post, and I wanted to address those maybe’s.

I just wanted to show that there are ZERO maybe-reasons to participate in capitalism/competing, and thousands of reasons to avoid it/stop it.

The URL to this rant has been given out to MANY… and maybe even Bill Gates, IF any of the local Microsoft employees give him the URL.

It’s likely they are too scared of their supreme leader… to help the community/planet in this way.

If DK has good intestinal fortitude and/or wants to reciprocate… on the 5+ years of dedication that I gave to his parade, he’ll make sure Mr. Gates gets the URL.

All in all, I have now nailed the 95 theses to the competer’s church door.

In “order” to have maximum credibility, I must be able to show that my (these) claims can hold-up to all “maybe’s”. My (This) justification for condemning capitalism… needs to be water-tight, or else the caps will try to wiggle-out-of owning-up to my (these) claims. Sorry.

I have to hold the hard-line, here. I’m trying to save a planet… not an easy task.

[Wingnut]

Hmm, no reply from Mr. Gates, yet? It seems our concerns will be “blown-off”.

[Wingnut]

Hi again. Whelp, as best i can tell, if MS doesn’t turn “community minded” instead of capitalist… I can’t help-with or promote BJS anymore. I apologize to those who I promoted BJS-to, as it seems I have unintentionally lead you all astray.

I’ve been working on a BJS song… a drivin’ boogie-woogie… very similar to this version of Sea Cruise.

I’ve been scraping together funds to try to afford a little studio time to produce it… but I never got there before the air got sucked out of my sails.

Seeing that none of you stood by my side as I raised this issue, and that ya’ll are headed right down the PR center-line of capitalism boulevard… ya might just as well have the lyrics before I split.

Hard-driving boogie-woogie songs do more for advertising/promotion (peddling) than any “trust us… we care… REALLY” video can.

---

(It’s a) Babylon Saturday Night
By Wingnut & The AntiCaps
21 Mar 2019

v1:
Well it’s the weekend time, and I’m won-der-in’ what I’m gonna do.
I got my PC hummin’, and the monitor is callin’ yoo hoo.
You know I start… real… simple… with a box and a sphere,
cuz I know imagination gonna take it from here,
Turn-on a camera and light…
It’s a Babylon Saturday Night.

v2:
You know that Delta and the gang… they’ve been cuttin’-up the web G-L.
A couple bangs… on the keys… and I build a world… easy-as-hell.
I got my vectors on a worldspace line,
I got materials and colors fine,
Yeah every thing feels right…
It’s a Babylon Saturday Night

bridge:
Babylon JS… grab a file and play-us… sure to chase the blues away.
Babylon JS… nothin’ gonna sway-us… Babylon is here to stay…
so I say…

v3:
I’m gonna code the friggin’ night away… a-dreamin-up my game or app.
It might be loved, or maybe not, or will they laugh… like I could give a crap.
The opportunities are far and wide,
I’m gonna get on this horse and ride,
No interruptions in sight…
It’s a Babylon Saturday Night.

Well I’m a-feelin’ alright… cuz it’s a
Babylon Saturday Night.

---

I’m far-from a pro song-writer… sorry. I officially place this song (these lyrics) in the public domain, free to use for your peddling/commercial gains. Have fun.

[Givo]

free to use for your peddling/commercial gains.

C’mon Wingnut, enough salt has been tossed around in this topic. Maybe topics should be limited to 123 posts/replies…

[Givo]

Have you ever thought about rethinking these to lines from the starting post?

the never-ending talk-about-anything thread-from-hell.

Rattle-on about anything…

But please forgive everyone because as you said

we have THE BEST webGL library ANYWHERE

a great community of helpers and super-hero techies

You have arrived at a wonderful place… the shores of Lake Babylon

Can we all just have a fairy-tale ending please? I’d hate to see you leave @Wingnut, and look at this:

The community is the main reason I’ve stuck with Babylon.js for as long as I have (about 1.5 months) and I’ve tried three.js, but the main problem was that there was no set forums. Like what bjs had before these, posts were on stackoverflow, but unlike bjs three.js was not on html5gamedevs.

I hope you rethink your decision to leave. A lot of people will miss you.

[Deltakosh]

I promised to not comment here anymore but I must say that I totally agree with @Givo

[Givo]

Which part? or all of it?

[Deltakosh]

Well the part about your feelings if @Wingnut decided to leave

[Givo]

The image kinda helps explain it apart from having the most of most categories, @Wingnut and I have a 79-post pm. I’d hate to see him leave.

[Wingnut]

It can all be fixed very simply, with the methods I have already given.

C’mon, you guys. Microsoft is ALREADY 3/4 way to commune NOW! One of the biggest corporations, with one of the best reputations, with probably THE most powerful people-helping foundation attached, and what might be the NICEST founder/owner that we have seen in DECADES!

Get the URL to the rant/problem… to Bill Gates. Should we remove the extraneous posts from the rant? Should I put it in a more-presentable package? Doctor it up with tact like a cap would do?

I want to be heard… by deltakosh’s supreme boss… which is BJS’s supreme leader too, now.

If MS claims to care about community, then my message will get to Bill Gates. Deltakosh should be hand-carrying my my my concerns… on a silver platter, to wherever Mr. Gates basks in his empowerments. We REALLY need him and his power… to help us kill a terrorist… a terrorist called cost-of-living.

Kill the fire-starter dragon, don’t keep fighting fires.

I’m a member of this community… at least for a little while longer. I want a say. Can I have one… with the supreme controller, Bill Gates? Will good friends help carry my message to him? I think they might be too scared of him.

I’m still learning… still testing the integrity and intestinal fortitude of my friends, here.

[Givo]

That’s the spirit? Well, at least for the most part. Thanks for being willing to stay for longer, maybe forever. I wouldn’t be where I am with bjs right now if it wasn’t for you.

[Wingnut]

Hey G. It’s a sad time, and I think you are being a bit ego-centric (self-absorbed). I’m trying to save a planet, here. You might want to take your questions out to the main forum where the paid helpers can help you. I can’t help anymore, because I might be removing workload from paid helpers, putting their paychecks and families at-risk of layoff.

Sorry bud. We still have ironing to do here… and it’s not going well, so far.

[Givo]

I think you are being a bit ego-centric

oh well. Most of the time I don’t talk much in person. I delete the post and continue on my way. Good luck saving bjs. But really, why the sarcasm? Maybe we all could work something out.

Sorry for being inconsiderate.

[JCPalmer]

@Wingnut, now I fully acknowledge that I have been Steamin for a long time now. While your individual messages may not be in violation of item 1 of Content Standards, think the overall u-nrelentless series of message are some form of harassment.

Please walk this back, or just drop the topic. You know full well Bill Gates has not been operating this company for years.

[JohnK]

Like others I would be sad to see you leave. I am not with you on much that you have said and how you said it so I suppose that makes me unpure even if unpaid. What I mainly disagree with you is your melding of this forum and the BJS core team with your satan, capitalism.

I was active duty U.S. Air Force from 1976-1985). I loved it. It was a commune… and we all took care of one another… central team… altruists… watching -out for the other guy first, and then checking on self… later

When you were on active duty for the U.S. AirForce you were able to separate you and your commune within it from the very powerful capitalist enforcer you were working for. When you were there who knows what orders you could have been given, it could have turned out very badly for you are your commune. In the same way the BJS community and this forum can be a commune whatever the outer controlling powers are and whatever that may or may not imply for the future. Just like your AirForce life, nothing lasts forever.

So just a final plea for you to re-engage with this forum as the nurturer you are. Saving the planet can be done by giving an example to others on how to care for those using this forum as you always have.

[Deltakosh]

I REALLY don’t want to ban / close any topic but as a lot of users already asked for it or mentioned it, I will be forced to lock down this thread if we do not get back to babylon.js topics ONLY.

[Wingnut]

Here comes the “ordering” that I predicted. They’re pepper-spraying free-speech and free-expression. erf. Wow.

[Deltakosh]

Unlocking after we discussed with @Wingnut

[Deltakosh]

[Wingnut]

Test 1 - 2 - 3… are we on the air? Huh? Check, check.

Wow, sorry about that 24-hour interruption in TWC.

I got pulled-over. I got a ticket for “Rail-roading/Ram-rodding on a family-style band-wagoning trail”. Kind of a long detainment, but they were really nice… gave me cookies and Hi-C.

They kept staring at my butt, and then I went to hospital. Apparently I had a bur in my saddle, and I also had some gravel packed-into my ass-crack.

Anyway, the doctors fixed me up, and then they let me go again… after I promised to keep my freight locomotive off-of the town’s sidewalks.

Oh well… I got my/the statement made. I’ll try to think-up some stupid 3D jokes to lighten the mood, soon.

Yeah, I know, it’s been an ordeal. Sometimes that happens… often it’s necessary. I still have a personal problem to deal-with. I’m not sure HOW to roll THAT booger, yet.

[Givo]

That’s the spirit!

Now let’s be happy with this over-due song.

A tad late, but should help.

[Givo]

I’m glad you’re back @Wingnut.

[Wingnut]

Thx, G! I never really went anywhere (or got anywhere), Givonovichski.

I’m still somewhat hands-tied. Can’t fig how to get free, yet. Big truck parked in the way-of full returning. Nobody knows how to move it.

Discourse: I wonder where our dark-background emoticons went… for us dark-theme-users. All our emoticons are white-backgrounded these days. hmm.

[Givo]

There is a dark theme? sign me up!

BTW Givo isn’t my real name. It took me ~3 years to come up with it.

[Wingnut]

@givo, did you find it yet? Click upon your “G” icon, then upon the “preferences gear” in the upper right, then choose ‘interface’.

On another subject… Babylon.js

That’s a lot of 0-replies… some of them quite old. (Wingy scared)

PS: The new auto-welcome for first-time posters… ROCKS! Way good. Thanks. Still no dark-background emoticons for dark theme users. Does anyone know the story on that? (thx)

[Deltakosh]

Will do a complete round of questions tomorrow.
For dakr background emoticons, I don’t know but worth asking on discourse forum

[Wingnut]

Thx DK.

The Sunday-lurker forum kids can do a little work today, too. They’re all just sitting around, drinking coffee, and talking about Babylon 5, anyway.

They can get some forum questions answered… now that they’re all coffee’d up.

(Wingy gives @JohnK a little gold star, for tackling a 14-hour followCam question. Obviously, John has no Sunday life/purpose.) hehe. (Just kidding, of course.)

[Deltakosh]

Lol I used to be like that but my 4 year old will disagree now

[nasimiasl]

i don’t understand something?
i feel i am new in here
most important stuff for me
@Wingnut wanna leave!!!
BJS is not open anymore (is that changed way)
why i always look stupid

[Wingnut]

i feel i am new in here

Hi Naz!

Deltakosh gave me permission to reply-to (actually, he simply didn’t specifically prohibit it, yet) …questions about the anticap rally in TWC park. So… here I go. (Wingy dons a combat helmet and flak jacket.)

I feel that way too, Naz (new in here)… but I must be careful what I say here in TWC, now. In short, they tried to drag BJS into a capitalism mud hole, and I got spanked for trying to have a say/free-opinion about that. I guess I was too mean/brutal. Or… bad topic for the topic police that I thought had given me a permit to speak freely.

I learned some things, and am STILL learning. I learned that there are a substantial amount of “fragiles” around here… who get offended over nearly anything… and they got ESPECIALLY offended/fragile when I blew the lid off-of something they are thoroughly addicted-to and hugging with all their might (a false deity).

It IS still “open”, but the steering committee is all-capitalist, now. Paychecks are having an effect/affect upon BJS… maybe/likely “calling” some “shots” (directing decisions). The investigation is still underway, but within the underground, now. No longer public, after the censoring. Too dangerous.

For being an international project… they sure aren’t very tolerant of non-capitalism-addicted nations… such as Venezuela and other Bolivarian views. Bolivarians/anti-caps are in trouble… if they visit here. BJS community is a microcosm of what USA capitalism is doing to Venezuela RIGHT NOW… threatening it. (microcosm = miniature version/clone)

We also might be seeing a “sanctioning” microcosm, a reflection of the USA Trumpian terrorism (sanctioning) that is being imposed-upon non-conforming-to-imposed-rules nations… around the world. Naz… YOUR country is under a TON of capitalism-imposed-rule attempts and sanctioning, eh? Sorry, bud. Capitalists are pretty disgusting. I’m working-on fixing it, but it is likely I will get “silenced”, soon.

I’ll let the paids further explain what they did, if they can realize what it is, yet. Safer for me. I don’t like being bombed for talking… AT ALL. Scary.

Local authorities MAY have gotten 2-years-addicted to ordering-around worker-bees, and they recently treated me as an order-able, and are likely treating BJS as an order-able, too.

I might be in trouble AGAIN, just for saying what I did here… in this reply. I gotta shut up, now.

Current state: There is a disagreement on whether/not an anti-cap rant was “appropriate” here and now. Local authorities say “no, capitalism has no affect on BJS steering, so relax”. My group says “yes, it’s time for you to own-up to capitalism’s disgusting-ness, so you don’t allow any of its gross germs… to attach to BJS”.

(Wingy dives back into his foxhole like a little girlie-man, and quickly changes back into his clown uniform)

I lost my “reset bump date” choice/menu… to avoid edited posts from being bumped to top. I wonder if I got demoted.

[nasimiasl]

i am weekness little boy wingy but i stay with you don’t scare

[Wingnut]

Thanks, Naz. I wish we had MUCH MORE of that kind of love around here.

You might be physically weak (me too + sick, sad, broke, and toothless), but you are NOT weak intellectually or heart-wise. You are VERY strong in those ways. I’m proud and honored to know you.

I wish I could know you better/closer.

OOOH, I just got a “nice reply” award by the forum… for getting 10+ LIKES on a post! YAY! Unfortunately, it was given for talking about frivolity such as Babylon 5, and not for the much higher-priority and higher-importance topics in THIS thread.

[nasimiasl]

a good reply don’t need any like i think if that be a useful that is gold
a main job of forum most be make useful topic so the replies can show any risk and danger about solutions if i disagree with that solution i most write the reason the only like or love the post is not useful

• notice we have solution checked too
  i think talk about future of bjs is so important and useful for user

my works not so familiar with babylonjs ways i actually try wired ways always that can not used a bit too but i like share what i think i like try new ways and help all new or old members ( if i can ) i cant help a special group or team they separated them self with other member maybe i am close to jedi with dark force
when i see a question in open framework don’t think who write that

for my imaging babylonjs is snake the leaders is head of that snake and members is body what happen if we cut the head

• i don’t like be in head without body
• i don’t like be in body without of head

so if i want be survive i like be create my own open source web/open GL framework ( i like be in any stupid live snake better than dead snake)

[Givo]

i like be create my own open source web/open GL framework

no need three.js is around.

i like be in any stupid live snake better than dead snake

that’s what you’ll get with three.js. on the other hand, make 2d games and use phaser.js. great library. I made a little platformer with it.

@Wingnut I switched to the dark theme. I guess I never really looked for it. I see what you mean with the emojis.

To (Partally) quote a youtuber, “V̶a̶l̶v̶e̶ @Deltakosh , please fix.”

On second inspection, the issue has been fixed. Oh well, I like 3kliksphilip / 2kliksphilip / kliksphilip.

[Wingnut]

To (Partally) quote a youtuber, “V̶a̶l̶v̶e̶ @Deltakosh , please fix.”

Hi Givo. Emojies not a problem that Deltakosh can fix. Problem is/was at Discourse headquarters.

[Givo]

I at least got a quote in. But it’s now fixed. see;

[Wingnut]

Perhaps you have magic powers! NICE WORK, G!

[Givo]

I didn’t do anything.

I gotta eat and get ready for school. seeya later.

[Wingnut]

Hey, we were recently talking about “gotta” vs. “get to”. Interesting!

Don’t you wish school was SO MUCH FUN, that you would “get to” go… and be hurried because you had SO MUCH FUN ahead?

I don’t like “gotta” (force). I like “get-to” (free choice).

I think… 3JS is being steered by Google. (Deltakosh told me that its author is Google employee, and he, too, is being paid by Google to dev 3JS.)

I did a little sniffing around. There’s a few webGL libs that are still free-of-corporate… but not many.

[Givo]

“gotta” vs. “get to”

I kinda like school. On of my classes is like a free period but it’s not and our school calls it the “Tech Nest” (We are the Winhawks) Last fall we went to TIES 2018 (that was fun) and presented on how we livestream. (I was manning a camera) So we live streamed our presentation for people not there (like for the district if anyone wanted to watch) and had the actual livestream being projected while we were presenting. (so the people in the audience could see what the people at home were seeing) We had like 10-15 or so people in the audience (the room was on the smaller side.) That class is my favorite but my other ones aren’t all bad.

Most of the time I’m like, “hey I get to go to fifth hour (the Tech Nest “class”)” as it requires meeting with the principal to get his signature, and having good grades. plus we are like the I.T. before the I.T. when we help people.

[Wingnut]

i know how can be survived without any air

(power hugzzzzz). I’m SO sorry that happened. That is sad. You are my hero!

Yeah, you are extremely smart and very warm-hearted… considering the odds/obstacles against it.

(Naz is in the Tehran area, a beautiful city in a beautiful country full of beautiful friends, but with a few slow-to-change traditions/beliefs within the leaders, yet, just like USA problems.)

[Givo]

I will post a gif soon. This post has 2841 characters.

[Deltakosh]

BJS is not open anymore

Babylon.js is obviously still open source and nothing has changed on that front since its creation

[Wingnut]

It was good to see DK say “on that front”. On other fronts, things HAVE changed… but we’ve covered that TO DEATH… in previous posts. Issue remains a concern and unsolved, and is seen being “walked-around” instead of “worked-thru”. I’m pretty sure that “worked-thru” is impossible to accomplish, under current conditions.

@JCPalmer - if you’re still around…

You know full well Bill Gates has not been operating this company for years.

I/we do not NEED the “operator” of Microsoft to come visit and take a stance on capitalism. He/She (operator) does not have the “say” to turn Microsoft into a commune-based non-company, or the authority to use the Microsoft name to promote a better/kinder world. Only Windows Willie has that kind of “say”. You knew that… full well.

---

No reply from Michael Moore yet/ever, but he got the URL. Michael Moore movies/documentaries have been saying good’n’right things since the very first of many.

Originally, I wanted some debate and feedback about these anti-cap claims, but some are SO upset over the subject matter… that they went off-topic and started quoting posting rules and regulations… rules and regulations that I never signed MY name-to. (Remember the empowerment starvation problem that I mentioned earlier? Self-appointed “junior authority-wannabes” are infested in the woodwork of this commune-ity, trying to wield their limp-as-a-noodle scepters of power - pathetic.)

We north-country loggers… eat namby-pamby thin-skinned people like that… for breakfast. I hope they don’t expect their little girly hissy-fits… to have any affect on lumberjacks like me.

How pathetic and deluded. Here in activists land, we consider being booted from a blog… as a 100% “impact success”, so wussy threats of “denial of service” don’t slow us power-activists… what-so-ever. (I say this, just in case these “regulations-quoters” think they have ANY say… about activism for good’n’right things)

There, that’s said and done, now. Sometimes we need to awaken the cop-wannabes, so they can get a fresh grasp on reality. Party-on!

[Wingnut]

Oooh, a Microsoft spokesperson saying the same things as I have said, but doctored-up with sugar-frosted tact.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2019-03-29/microsoft-s-weyl-on-rethinking-capitalism-video

(sorry for the ads - not my fault)

We have some hope for success, here. YAY! Yep, Microsoft is 3/4 commune. We knew they were.

Update with potential: URL was email-sent to Mr. Weyl for pondering/comments, and that email was CC’d to Gates Foundation. BIG EYES might be watching. (welcome/hug) (Wingy hands-out helmets and flak jackets, and begins digging more foxholes.)

[Wingnut]

Wingy once said, and then deleted:

“I’ll ping-assign this issue to @Deltakosh, who will likely ping TrevorDev, who may ping someone “beneath” him, who might ping another, who… hehe. Poop-rolls-down-hill ping-strings. ”

About that:

This is a goofy system that slows responses and fools users, which I don’t understand. Ranking/delegating is apparently here to stay (I would have cancelled that system in a second, but I got no say in that, sorry). I am trying to keep this issue in ONE thread, but nobody is addressing these issues.

Users must be patient… as the pinging-pass-along traverses to the bottom rung and becomes a do-it-or-else work-order to some poor, low-ranking schmuck. THE MOST depressing thing about this system? User gets a notification that an answer to his/her question has happened. User rushes to forum with hope and excitement… only to find the disappointment of a pass-along delegating ping. SAD!!! TERRIBLE!!! BJS popularity-killing - 101.

Find a different delegating system, eh? And it would be nice and transparent… if answers by “delegated helpers”… are marked as such. That way the user can know if the answer was given by someone under orders, or by a pure helper.

Are you paying attention, DK? I WILL hand-hold you until you understand, as needed. You’re well-worth the effort of awakening, even if I’m taking fire, doing it. (You have kindly held my-my-my hand plenty of times, on the technical-side.) Is this the kind of system… that you wanted/hoped-for? YECH!

Sorry guys, I gotta keep fighting for good’n’right… because a disgusting thing has attacked BJS and I want it gone. Or… at least get a disinfectant shield against its creeping bacteria (a letter of promise from Mr. Gates or HIS boss). If I get permanently banned (or killed) for fighting-for good’n’right, then so be it.

[Givo]

Sometimes ping-passing can be a good thing. When somebody sees my topic, and they ping another person, it can be helpful. If my topic is deep in the recent, and somebody pings in it, it brings it up and helps the person who can help be notified. It helps somebody know that they should be able to help. I’ve never had a more than one ping-pass on a topic, but single pings help.

Just my input. It seems like this topic has become commentary on Microsoft.

[Wingnut]

nod I’ve seen a double-ping-pass, maybe one triple… but it was more of a “gather the team” yell-out, so it had many pings in the third-level ping-pass. thx for the comments. Perhaps there is an option to not-notify original poster… if reply was a pass-along ping. I dunno. The whole she-bang is rotten, imho.

[Givo]

If somebody just has a reply that is like:

“pinging @Wingnut”

the topic creator shouldn’t be notified. Discourse could add that.

[Wingnut]

Unfortunately, replies often have some information, and then a pass-along ping (pap?)

[Givo]

Sometimes they do, and your right about that. But a post like:

Loop created objects with physics impostors have issues

Summoning @trevordev

Should not notify the postee.

[Wingnut]

( Wingy ponders renaming TWC to: The Weirdo Channel )

See that? See how ‘weird’ is spelled? Famous saying: “i” before “e”… except when it’s ‘weird’.

[Deltakosh]

I liek the idea of having a “ping user” that will not be a regular answer so no one but the “pingee” will be pinged

[Wingnut]

Well fine, I’ll add-on some more spirit.

Do any TWC readers know about RDF (resource description framework) (a type of XML schema/markup/dtd)?

It is/can-be involved-in a thing called “ontology”.

Loosely defined, it is the study of “categorization characteristics”. If we were to build a Glossary of Terms (GT) that relate to BJS/3D/Everything-Else-We-Deal-With, we will want to categorize those terms… sort-able by “characteristics”. This is the way to begin… an auto-pinging system for Discourse-brand blogs.

Some single-word terms… will meet MULTIPLE “characteristics criteria” (CC) (somewhat rare). A single sentence… is VERY likely to meet multiple cc’s.

Example question title: “Need help setting Math.sin rotation on ribbon impostor”

There, we have a math question, mixed with a transformation question, mixed with a parametric shapes question, mixed with a physics question. Four terms that COULD trigger 4 different categorization criteria… and thus 4 helper departments get auto-pinged from the question’s TITLE ALONE.

Weird, eh? Ontologies. The question TITLE carried four different ontological “thingies” (cc’s). (“characteristics criteria” or “categorization criteria” or “categorization characteristics”)

If we build our “glossary structure” in a multi-usage way, it can also be used for “auto-help”, and can become integrated with our help pages. Use same possibly-RDF glossary-file structure, but now two or more systems can use/read that GT… for potentially-automated good-stuff. Sort of a DTD/schema for BJS terminology.

Anyone on my frequency? On other recent TWC topics, it seems I have been transmitting on frequencies that few can tune their radios-to.

[jerome]

we’re listening to you (and I used to know well about RDF and ontologies 10 years ago, not sure I remember everything now)

[JohnK]

RDF never heard of it until now. Looks like an interesting idea. Unfortunately have no idea how to build such a thing. Will have a read around about RDF but do not hold your breathe waiting for me to do anything but vote for it as a good idea to pursue. So voted.

[syntheticmagus]

It is/can-be involved-in a thing called “ontology ”.

I think there’s a separate page for the comp-sci definition as opposed to the more philosophical definition; did you mean to link to this page instead?

[Wingnut]

Thx S! You certainly could be correct on that. And perhaps Taxonomy is a better term. I ALREADY need a terminology assistant.

“existence, reality, as well as the basic categories of being and their relations.” (“being” not necessarily == living thing, here. A screwdriver has “being”, too).

“how such entities may be grouped, related within a hierarchy, and subdivided according to similarities and differences.”

Both of those lines were in the link I provided. I’m easy, though… define as ye wish. We’re just looking for basic understanding, here, because that’s all I have to offer.

Readers… be sure to check-out @syntheticmagus link, because it is likely more apropos than the link I offered-up. Sorry about that.

Also, newer/wiser tech might be available to do this… more easily and powerfully. I’m with @jerome on this. I was reasonably well-read about RDF… about 10 years ago. I think… maybe XSL and XPath can be used to transform the BIG FAT GT… into a tiny return-to-user-after-term-search… document. It doesn’t modify the source doc… just DISPLAYS the source doc… AS-IF it were a new, much smaller xml-doc/webpage. WHICH content it decides to display/return… is based-upon XSL transformation instructions… within the XSL/XPath/XQuery/stylesheet.

It is somewhat CSS related - a “stylesheet”, transforming an XML document into… something different. XSL stands for eXtensible Stylesheet Language.

[drburton]

Gotta love any discussion that uses “ontology”.
Waiting on someone to work “epistemology” into the conversation.

[Wingnut]

Oh way to go! YOU just did so. Now were ALL screwed. heh. Hi Dr. Burton, nice to meet/hear you… welcome. I’m Wingnut… geezer… maybe the biggest pain in the butt this side of the Manson-Nixon line. How-ya-doon? I hope well.

E-pis-te-mo-lo-gy - Wingnut looks-it-up. Ah yes… the study of studying. Alright! errr… beliefs vs. provable knowledge, and the study of what makes something provable. Hard evidence, soft evidence, flexibility and hard-lining. Teddy bear hugging (belief/tradition-hugging). hmm. Yeah, we’re all screwed, now.

Just a LITTLE TOO MUCH subject matter for Wingy’s epistema-starved chakras. Astral projection next? I can do cloud dissolving! Ain’t I just something? (Damnedest thing ya ever couldn’t believe you were seeing). Does that count? Does it raise my epistema? Cooooool!

I love talking about “you create your own reality, literally”), and other deep stuff. Multi-worlds! I’m a Seth/Jane Roberts fan from WAY back. All us elderly hippies are. “Your beliefs form your reality”… some have said.

Are you old enough to be a former hippy, Doc? (ninja me bizzywhack, of course, but volunteer info about yourself/beliefs AT WILL… I welcome it.)

Umm… you weren’t hired by the BJS community… to check if I was off-my-rocker, were you? They have been looking at me… sort of oddly, lately.

[drburton]

Lol, nope, I’m a professor of game design at a too-red college in West Texas (I’m the long-haired type of prof - which earns plenty of side-ways glances on campus… maybe if I braided it?)
.
I’m a product of the hippy generation rather than a member card-carrying member.
My wife is a full-blown hippy, but also misses the lower age limit of those who are traditionally associated with the hippy generation by a few years.

Currently, I’m working on a textbook on learning Babylon.JS and developing an online course that will hopefully see the light of day this summer.
I’ve written a few other textbooks on Corona SDK and Unity. All indie published.
Really excited about Babylon.JS and being able to deliver 3D & VR via browser.

My primary focus is using technology to create alternative learning solutions for children such as home-schooled, health-issues, international travelers, or others who want a quality education that may not be available in their geographic area.
A summer goal is to create a proto-type education environment using Babylon.JS (let the coding/modeling/networking begin!).

[nasimiasl]

you r welcome @drburton
i like your idea about “epistemology” too
but if you wanna do weird stuff ping me here

[Wingnut]

Dr. Burton, meet Rahman Nasimi asl (@nasimiasl) (or “Naz” as i call him).

He is lead programmer at Microsoft in Tehran… and a coding God, shader God, and general nice guy.

What’s that, Naz? Oh, you went independent cuz Microsoft wasn’t letting you smoke pot on the job?

What’s that? Not THAT reason? ohhhh.

Naz is a long-time local hero… and codes/builds some of the ODDEST, yet most-powerful BJS tools and scenes… we have EVER seen. We think maybe he is AT LEAST half-alien or half Cray computer.

Dr. Burton… if you don’t know it by now, a super nice/smart guy named @Deltakosh is the lead programmer/designer of BJS. He’s always around somewhere, helping someone do something, and he LOVES “puppies”.

[nasimiasl]

so i think you like GeometryBuilder + ShaderBuilder stuff

[drburton]

Always up for weird, creative, or original approaches to doing boring things!

[Wingnut]

https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1IAR36#18

There’s a Naz playground using his ShaderBuilder tool… which is a sister to his GeometryBuilder tool.

See that code? It’s like trying to read Swahili.

A long time ago… I packed-together an older g-builder and old s-builder… and he taught me how to do a “first step” of BOTH. https://playground.babylonjs.com//#179VAS#1

Just a LITTLE Swahili in that one. Hey @nasimiasl, show us one of your big fat monsters.

Ya gotta BE a Cray computer… just to READ the code (in one of his FAT playgrounds). heh. (Naz hug). Nobody knows how he does it. Magic, I guess.

[nasimiasl]

i try to sort benefits

[drburton]

That’s cool!
Need to dig into some of that code!

[nasimiasl]

read this first

GeometryBuilder Starter

GeometryBuilder is a simple powerful core that let Us build any geometry with code and make mesh from that GeometryBase Core : Extensions/GeometryBuilder at master · BabylonJS/Extensions · GitHub Editor : http://editor.5kb.me Sample : GeometryBuilder PG : https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#1QC9DP#177

ShaderBuilder Starter

make easy and fast ShaderMaterial or PostProcess documents : ShaderBuilder Docs code : Extensions/ShaderBuilder at master · BabylonJS/Extensions · GitHub cdn reference : https://cdn.rawgit.com/BabylonJS/Extensions/master/ShaderBuilder/Babylonx.ShaderBuilder.js PG : Babylon.js Playground

[Wingnut]

I think that type of coding… is called “Fluent”, and here’s @Deltakosh with an introductory tutorial. Fancy stuff.

I used-to do some REXX programming, so it feels kind-of nice to me… even though I rarely use Fluent-like coding these days. i might start again. I have a HUGE BJS GUI project coming-up, where I am going to ATTEMPT to top Deltakosh’s record 187 controls in a single GUI layer. I may use Fluent-like stuff… for that. I’m kind of scared, though. 400+ widget HUD/dashboard combo for a Space Taxi. erf.

[Wingnut]

Brian Burton

Wow. Quite a portfolio of helping-ness. Nice!

Brian. BBCode. B-B. Bubba… from the Double-B Ranch and Steakhouse. Yeah!

Bubba Burton.

Okay, I’m finally done playing with your name. Good lookin’ youtube presence, 4sure!

[Wingnut]

Hey JK, thanks for the comments and work-hours availability report. I don’t think ANYONE expects you to do any heavy work on a BJS Glossary-of-Terminology (GT). This is likely a job for a paid team member or 8.

After the “initial” creation of the db/file, there will be a solid year of additions and re-arrangements to the collection. And then… likely forever-ongoing tweaks and additions. There’s no reason why Microsoft money can’t be used for that. “Glossary Tuesday”. Every Tuesday… for an hour or two… Team Redmond (or wherever they park themselves)… works-on the BJS GT.

Might as well get some DECENT use from the MS money dribbling-down those feeding nipples, eh?

Oooh, that’s nasty talk, huh? The Paids HATE when I do that, but we need to point-out the MYRIAD of troubles that they have caused for the BJS community. It only gets uglier from here, gang.

Yep, if the paid helpers give a crap about doing things right and getting organized, they’ll handle this. The idea is laying on the ground in front of them, now. We’ll see if any of them pick it up, blow the dirt-off, and run with it.

Only one line of enthusiasm seen from The Paids so far…

I liek the idea of having a “ping user” that will not be a regular answer so no one but the “pingee” will be pinged

The idea might be a “failure to launch”, John, and YOU already have a TON of workload on YOUR plate… being Chief Docs Custodian. It’s nearly fishing season for me, and I’m building another band, so I won’t be contributing much time to it, other than the spiriting/spearheading that I have done in recent posts.

I think semi-automating the helper systems is a worthwhile endeavor. The steering committee may disagree, and they have the final say. It is really FOR them, anyway (and the users).

How many working class folk… voluntarily go to their job… during “off-hours”? FEW! Each paid member… generally-speaking… checks the forum… only during standard job-hours. SO, you see, THEY are the ones that most-need the auto-help/auto-ping system. It helps them keep user-questions from “falling thru the cracks”… especially on weekends when folks HEAVILY-use BJS. On weekends, the users need their forum questions answered RIGHT NOW… absolutely NO DELAY, because they are “hands-on” RIGHT THEN. An answer 4 hours from ask-time… just KILLS their workflow. And that happens on the weekend, when every second of BJS hands-on time… is precious and rare.

If The Paids are intelligent… they will assign a “weekend monitor” every weekend, all weekend long… and rotate the duty between members. Sort of like having a pager, and SOME BJS helper MUST be “manning the pager” all weekend, and it wouldn’t hurt to have it monitored all night, too. If they got their crap together whatsoever, this is what they will implement.

Hopefully, we don’t need to babysit their priorities, but I’m not going to hold my breath. Pffft. What a mess.

[Wingnut]

Aww hell, let’s do a bit more bashing and storytelling, here… see if I can become hated MORE.

Ever since the start of the Anti-Cap Rally in TWC Park, I have been calling “The Paid Helpers”… every degrading name in the book. Dk and the 7 Dwarfs, Team DoItForMoney, The Whores of Babylon, “thems”, “theys”, etc, etc. Not very kind, eh?

When I asked for the team’s name, the reply was something like “BabylonJS Team”. Well, that’s not going to cut the muster, Sally. We absolutely need a way to differentiate the “pure” supporters, from the “paid” supporters.

After this recent discussion, trying to coax The Paids into listening-to ideas from OUTSIDE-OF their close-knit team of cronies… I think I have decided on “Team Igloo”… or “Igloo Team”.

When capitalism/corporatism invaded BJS 2 years ago, capitalism placed an “igloo” over BJS… isolating the BJS steering committee (the paids)… from the “outside world”. They gathered a consortium… to call the shots, hovered around DK, their leader and chief “paid”. The power brokers… isolated… protected… safe from outside influences and disliked “weather”.

Fear not, pures! There is a tiny opening in one end of the igloo… and Team Igloo MIGHT entertain thoughts and ideas (like the GT)… THRU that little opening. That little opening, that little crawlspace… is the community’s tiny microphone of “have-a-say” or “inject a thought”. Use it wisely, and you might get the attention of a power-broker dwarf! You HAVE hope!

Gruesome story, eh? Could I BE a bigger prick? Not sure. Yay, Igloo Team!

Can ya “feel” Deltakosh’s hands on my microphone cable? I can. I think he’s got the BIG wire-cutters in his pocket! TWC listeners… prepare for upcoming electrical blackout! heh. IT’S JUST A STORY! DON’T FREAK OUT, please.

I must say, some reassurances received from Team Igloo members… have been pretty good. I don’t know MOST of them, but SOME of them… seem ok, so far. Integrity seen.

Dk and the 7 Dwarfs. Ya gotta admit… THAT’S funny as hell, huh? C’mon, we all know it is… own-up.

[sebavan]

How many working class folk… voluntarily go to their job… during “off-hours”?

My bad… it is off-hours, I ll come back Monday

I like the idea of the auto ping a lot, not sure how this could integrate but not only it might help for ping but also for any users to subscribe to their favorite topics.

[Wingnut]

also for any users to subscribe to their favorite topics

That’s an EXCELLENT idea/usage. Cooooool! (Wingy sprays his clothes with a heavy coat of Lysol to prevent cap germs, and then hugs Sebavan firmly and thoroughly… for both the great idea and for the weekend visit)

[Deltakosh]

The problem then is to make sure that posts are correctly flagged. For instance if someone flag a post with physics tag then we can ping Trevor or Raanan. But if the post is about collisions then it is more noise than help

I’m afraid the auto ping will remain me for a while:)

[Wingnut]

Hi DK! Happy Saturday! Yeah, I agree. Unfortunately, the tags system is sort-of ignored or difficult to use, somewhat. And you KNOW how I ramble-on in a single post. Sometimes I need over 200 tags in one thread.

But yeah, the tags system is/was an attempt at sort-by-topic. Good point. hmm.

I would also like to somehow concentrate on helping the users LEARN the correct terms… light/simple definitions. 3-4 sentences at-most, and then a “click here for docs/forum/playground/web search to learn more” link.

[Deltakosh]

We can add that here:

https://forum.babylonjs.com/faq

But then the eternal question will be: will people read it?

We can also add a page for that in the Doc. But same eternal question

[Wingnut]

I think it has to me MORE automated than that. As they type words in the title of the question-post… auto-word-completion turns-on… AT LEAST to help them spell the terms correctly. Any “term-sniffing” system HAS TO have the terms spelled correctly, step #1.

Then, maybe before they get that first-post started… the “active title area” goes out sniffing, and offers a pop open “Before you post… here’s some help-links to try”… annoying the hell out of “purist” blog users (they would complain about title area being too imposing and too “helpy-helpy”).

Not sure. I’m still fleshing-out the possibilities in my brain, and I have a rather limited workspace area.

[nasimiasl]

we can define tags for user (they can choose them )
and when post created and contain that words ping happen
for me i like see all post with this
( shaderBulider , shaderMaterial, customMaterial , geometryBuilder, geometry ,customGeometry )

[Wingnut]

( shaderBulider

Misspell. Keyword contamination. Gears jammed. Blog blows up. GT “goo” sprays everywhere… scares the pets. (Wingnut trying more comedy - practicing for TV.)

[Deltakosh]

The think is that this should be suggested to discourse as they are hosting our forum

[Deltakosh]

Probably here: Discourse Meta - The Official Support Forum for Discourse

[Wingnut]

Yeah, if you’re clear on the criteria of your proposal, and have discussed your proposal thoroughly with everyone involved, then yeah, you should definitely submit your proposal, there.

Do I LOOK like someone who cashes MS paychecks? ahem.

[Deltakosh]

but that is the truth. If we come with a great idea which was well discussed they could consider adding it

[Wingnut]

Ohhh… yeah. I thought you were suggesting that we coax THEM into devving it.

Wouldn’t we need to dev-it locally… test it, see if plausible, and THEN offer to widespread usage options? I don’t work in shared-dev channels very much. I’m not sure how those interactions work. Dunno if you pay for Discourse usage, or storage space, or both, or what. Me puppy level in that stuff.

[Deltakosh]

I pay with my own money to not have to worry about the forum. I do not want to be depend on someone else like with our previous forum.

So Discourse is taking care of everything and they are making sure that the forum is always backed up and available. A money well spent from my point of view

The discourse project is open source and can be updated at will if you host it on your own. For us, it has to come from discourse team if we want an update as we are in the master version (not a fork) of Discourse.

[Wingnut]

as we are in the master version (not a fork) of Discourse.

Ah, ok. THAT’s the info I want to know, thx. That clears-up some stuff. Can we add an “extension” to the master, NOW, and it won’t get over-written when new master updates arrive? If so, we can AT LEAST get an XML file parser activated in various places… in case we DO use XML to store the glossary/simpleDefs data.

Sound sane? After every update of master… would you need to re-install our extension? Hassle? I don’t even know if extensions are possible, or if a fork is required. Sorry. You should go enjoy your weekend instead of answering my Discourse-noob questions.

[Deltakosh]

There are some extensions but just a few:

Plugin directory

Also why not using the doc or the FAQ to store the glossary? Why having an additional place?

[Wingnut]

Multiple usages… such as a “sister” to intelli-sense in the playground. FAQ and Glossary are not the same. Just like you, I don’t want to follow anyone else’ “rules”. Keep the glossary as an XML file (web semantics… content separated from presentation)… and the glossary has MUCH more portability.

Understand? I would have figged you knew this stuff already. (just kidding-around, of course)

[Deltakosh]

Well then in the doc?
We can point people at it as we want and it if completely free as part of the doc (as it is simple to update directly from the repo)

[Wingnut]

Can’t do XSL transforms and xPath lookups in a .md file. Gotta be xml/rdf… I’d say. If you want to search it/parse it/XSL it FROM the docs website, not a problem. Same file used there, as the one in the playground, and on the forum title-sniffer, and on and on and on. Portability… good old ascii… moves along with us if JSDoc system is ever abandoned. No problem, our glossary is safe and portable… move to new forum softwares, new playground systems, new docs system, no probs.

[Deltakosh]

But this will require code done by Discourse whereas starting a doc page can be done by you immediately and we could start pointing people at it

[Wingnut]

BY ME? Do I LOOK like I cash MS… ah never-mind with that joke… it’s not getting-thru.

I can start the glossary right now in a text editor… with a made-up-by-wingy xml markup language… and use XSL to transform it into anything, later. (xsl can change element names, of course. It’s like regexp for xml!)

I understand that the Discourse-to-XML/XSL interface might be a little “gray” and tough. I don’t know what these “plugins” are… and if they get overwritten by master-branch updates or not. Don’t have that info yet. But making an XML parser plugin isn’t very difficult, one would think.

But yes, in the end, we might need to fork Discourse to properly activate our (xml?) GT system. (auto-help?) (AHAP? auto-help/auto-ping?) Keep in mind… that the blog is but one of MANY MANY possible places and ways to use the glossary. Can ya WELD that (fact?) into your future discussions of this? I need you to understand/agree… that xml is possibly/likely the BEST way to store the db. The other steps come later. Thoughts?

We could also use ideas from others, too. We could let this topic float til maybe mid-next week… see what kind of input we get.

[Deltakosh]

Well one thing is sure: I do not plan to maintain the forum myself so it will stay in the hand of discourse. So if the xml/xsl idea wants to live, we first need the plugin. But we have no idea if that plugin will use xml/xsl to store data (I highly doubt that as I would not have pick that support but more json probably) or even if Discourse will be ok to do it.

Anyway, I agree that the glossary should be helpful elsewhere…like on the doc

[Wingnut]

JSON format is certainly an interesting thought. Likely quite a few JSON db systems already coded.

Yeah, JSON has potential. Probably MUCH faster look-up speeds, and not too difficult to edit by hand, if ever needed. Easy to build add-a-term apps, even in HTML (with backside auth-in or github-like PR staging.)

Yeah, json… would work, I think. (sorry for not thinking of that… I’m about 20 years behind-the-curve, there.) Json is definitely worth weighing and pondering.

[drburton]

Okay, let’s define what a term is and when it should be added. (BB getting excited to jump into the epistemology/ontology pool).
Should all special commands (i.e. ArcRotateCamera, HemisphericLight, Babylon vs BABYLON) be in the glossary, or is it limited to common vocabulary (Scene, Camera, Light) with references to the types of each?

I would love to include a glossary of regularly used BJS terms in the textbook that I am writing.
Each chapter starts with a vocabulary list to help students/readers, but thus far has been aimed at the novice (i.e. “Object”, “Scene”, “WebGL”).
As I get into the more advanced chapters, I’m happy to add more vocabulary, but I would like it to align with the glossary idea that is being proposed here.
And yes, I agree, that the glossary should be it’s own page (and would be great to have a intellisense feature on the site), with a link from the FAQ (yes, I read it… I accept that I’m a weirdo… I also read about the author at the beginning of the book so that I get a better idea of the lens through which they view the world).

[nasimiasl]

we have 3 kind of terms

1. general 3d terms like
   geometry , vertex , …

2. some term general people know them but we use in special usage
   StandardMaterial , customaterial , …

3. some term we mix or create like
   BABYLON , BABYLONX , …

we need clear more 2 and 3 terms but we have them in BJS Documents

[Wingnut]

Oh sure… you start right out with all the MOST DIFFICULT to answer questions. Ya just come walking out onto the thread in broad daylight… buck-naked, and expect us to climb-onto some hayride that you’re dragging behind your Massey-Fergusen farm tractor. “C’mon, jump aboard, kids, we’re headed to BrainTumorville for a picnic in a horse pasture!”

Then ya get us all thinking real deep, and you just drive-off and leave us there to be eaten by thought-dilemma self-inflicted wolves. All our guts and brains are squished into the horse-apples and muddy tractor ruts… yeah… FUN hayride, Farmer Bubba!

Too much attempted comedy with not enough results? Yeah, it’s the story of my life.

Oh gosh… the only initial thought I have… is to avoid using method names and property names… as glossary entries. Yet… hmph. That feels like it is tying our hands. (and might tie core programmer hands from ever changing prop/method names - they don’t want to make the GT go stale/need-updating)

Phew… yeah. I suppose a single JS db object… and a “recordClass” object… and perhaps even a “fieldClass” object. Records hold fields, db holds records?

Like I know ANYTHING about databases. But it would be nice… if a term… could be classified. And method/property names COULD be a specific class of term (COT)… but how useful or how much maintenance that would take… to keep that class “fresh”? Who knows? Knot I, said the rope.

Good usage ideas on your part, yep yep yep. I think… maybe… by Tuesday… we might see much more input from wiser people. Database Gods. Not sure how to start.

Perhaps build a terminology auto-collector engine? Attack the old forum with it? Good, Naz (@nasimiasl) is here. He has the old forum in JSON form… I think. He’s been doing archives… just in case old forum evaporates.

Wingy peeks-into Naz’s “data harvester” tractor-shed. Smells good in here… he’s been choppin’ alfalfa, I bet. Possibly “Mary Jane” (Wingy rolls-up some tar-ish “goo” from the cutting-blade of a nearby Data-Gleaner harvester, and bravely swallows it with a smile.)

[drburton]

In attempt to provide structure to the chaotic hayride described by wingnut:

I agree with @nasimiasl & @Wingnut, the glossary should focus on general terms and terms that are widely used but have a specific meaning in BJS.
Avoiding anything that would limit the developers or require a lot of updating the future should be avoided.
I like the idea of the JSON form. Doing a quick scan of discourse plugins, there does exist abbreviation plugins. There might be better tools for glossaries. I have no idea how easy it is to integrate a plugin into discourse when it is hosted, but I fully appreciate @Deltakosh decision to let someone else do the management. There are only so many hours in a day, let people who want to do that stuff, do it!

[nasimiasl]

BabylonJS/Extensions

http://mirror.5kb.me/BabylonOldForum/#tab|acc#search|nasimiasl

we have all topics + all post for each topic in json

[Wingnut]

but have a specific meaning in BJS

THAT statement is dangerous and limiting (imho). One of the biggest issues for me and other perma-noobs and easy-forgetters… is geometry terminology… which is not specific to BJS. And Math… oh boy. “Cross” product. Dot product. Magnitude. OMG. Not specific to BJS or 3D… or JS… or HTML… or… sigh. We stop at “canvas”… when heading toward HTML-teaching? Probably so.

For Math… try to quickly (Bubba’s-) “farm-out” the learning to approved Math web tutorials? nod That class of terms… could be called… what… “light duty”? We don’t teach much of ANYTHING about them in the db, we farm-it out to other pastures with minimum local overhead. But those URLS to those other tutorial pastures… need maintenance/stale-checks. (I hate that part).

FUN HAYRIDE, Farmer Brian! Did you know that there is another active user with the ‘BB’ thing going? @TheLeftover… good coder, nice guy, possibly slightly demented but in a fun way… real name - Brian Buttons. It’s a BBCode festival!

[Wingnut]

Naz… how many Cray computers would it take… and how long… to “query” the entire archive… and return the 5000 most-used words… in descending order -> asciifile. Any idea?

Multiple years, ya think? (Wingy’s dog runs/hides under the fridge, whining, for some reason.)

I suppose… need to eliminate “of”, “in”, “and”, “to”, etc. Lots of filtering needed, I suppose.

Maybe we can use a “moonshine distillery” process… where we “cook” the old forum mash, and the good stuff will rise to the top?

[nasimiasl]

that is wired i like wired stuff
think if 100000 computer run 100 000 different json file and count words
i can make 100 000 json in week just need expend them

all json size is 111 mb

[nasimiasl]

i can use FTS( FULL TEXT Search ) in (MS SQL ) and Index words so fast
and catch all words we have ~18 000 000 words in old forum

[Wingnut]

WOW! Cool! Useful for the GT? I dunno. Perhaps we re-filter and re-filter… until 18 mil reduces-to 5000 “useful” terms?

Remove heart from GIANT dinosaur, and then divide that heart into 5000 little hearts.

Weird. Sometimes I am glad/happy… that I am not very techno-intelligent.

“Wired” means something different, Naz, but wired is still cool. I think you meant “weird”, though. The BEST things… are both wired AND weird.

@nasimiasl… imho… feel free to move-ahead on the project as much as you wish. Try anything you wish, Naz. Gather terms freely… THANK YOU!

I can manually-filter ascii lists at SOME point, if needed. It should be done by Igloo Team, though. There is no longer any reason to do voluntary work on BJS. MS funds/workers are available and in-need of workload, so they can feed their families… with low risk of layoffs. We need to help DK delegate workload to them, to protect their families. Igloo Team can actually get MUCH larger and better-paid, if we “assign” them with lots of workload. Efficiency dictates that we carefully/wisely utilize every single drop of MS “juice” draining down the feeding nipples of Igloo Team, and try to increase that flow-rate for our Igloo-residing friends.

Perhaps it is best to NOT manually filter, but instead, manually “classify” each term. Term-typing.

But… we would need to establish type-categories, and I should not make lone decisions on available term-types, or about how a term is type-classified. There will likely be (a few) terms that fit MULTIPLE term-types. SO… hmm. Maybe db.record.type is an object with multiple properties. (Wingy NOT qualified for this kind of speaking - scared of my stupidity about this subject.)

Everyone who WANTS to participate in GT ideas/decisions… SHOULD be allowed-to do so, of course.

We still need lots more comments, if available. I wish to do more web-reading about similar systems/collections, and how others/librarians have done things. But, we DO need to start somewhere, gathering terms. The old forum has many of them. Good idea to run some term-harvesters and see what can be reaped. (IF computing power/harvester gas is available to do it.)

[droggam]

hi wingnut cool that you got your right back =)
Seems that is time to steam?
Anyhow I have a question about website rather than games…
Its a counter counting times component is loaded but it loads 2 times every time online
so my visitor count is 2 times its suppose to be is there any easy fix to fix this?
I dont know if the second time is favicon.ico call or not?
About games, I bought a super laptop but i miss my old slow poke laptop, when i had to wait for every command =)
Okay i asked on stackoverflow just waiting to get downvoted several times in row and removed =)

[JohnK]

At first, if it is possible, a search of terms in the questions (ie topic headings) rather than the answers could be fruitful.

[Wingnut]

a search of terms in the questions (ie topic headings)

Hi John. umm… it’s easy to misword the objective, and in doing that, slide-into an incorrect objective mind-set. Feel free to call it nit-picking if you wish, but, the objective is “collecting” terms, and not searching.

Some of the returns (from collecting terms from title lines) will be misspelled words, but we still want them in the 1st-level returns-list. I suppose… removal or spelling correction… happens in 2nd-level filtering stage. (like I have a clue)

On the subject of TEACHING terminology to the new-to-3d folks, I suppose the wise thing to do… is to rely on WikiPedia/Wiktionary as much as possible. That “classification of term” (COT) (term-type) that I mentioned earlier… is probably HOW we decide IF we send “the click” to WikiPedia/Wiktionary/web, or IF we send the click to forum/playground/docs search-for-more-info (local resources).

Or perhaps we offer where-to-search choices for each term. ie. Search Wikipedia/Wiktionary, search web, search forum, search docs, search playgrounds, search all… buttons. I dunno if we can build “mash-ups” (transclusion) for the “search all” returned webpage, but it’s worth a try… maybe. And I don’t know if WikiPedia/Wiktionary returns are allowed to be inserted (embeded) into another, larger webpage (copyright crap?). Perhaps iFramed-in? That’s a challenge for later. Team Igloo has MONEY MONEY MONEY! Let’s burn it up, via utilizing the workforce that it has bought for us. YAY JOBS!

hugzz

[JohnK]

Hi John. umm… it’s easy to misword the objective, and in doing that, slide-into an incorrect objective mind-set

Perhaps gather terms would have been better. Once gathered there would still have to be a decision on which to use. Most frequent? Correctly spelt?

[Wingnut]

Yeah. Decisions should be done on the community side, if allowed. Whenever/wherever possible, workload goes to Team Igloo, to help ensure none of them get laid-off, and to wisely utilize our MS stipend (funding for advancing BJS). We simply need to get DK to issue work-orders to Team Igloo, and they’ll do what they are ordered to do (whatever community wants done).

The work-ordering system for Team Igloo is fairly straight-forward. To be fair to us, DK needs to open an avenue for us to issue orders to the workers. There’s no reason why the community shouldn’t get to use that MS money, too. It’s for us, too. Fair is fair.

I already saw Givo ping trevordev for a physics question from another user, so Givo has the right idea. Utilize the paid workforce FIRST, for their benefit, and for lighter workload / more play-time… on the volunteer-side.

[Wingnut]

Some quick calculations: Team Igloo harvests about 1/2 mil USD from Microsoft, per year (wages/insurance/training, etc), to keep their 8-person team… devoted to the BJS cause.

We want to help Team Igloo… build a bigger harvester. The objective is… perhaps $2 mil per year in harvest of MS. Team Igloo would grow in member-count, and in paycheck amounts, and in job-security… all good things for Igloo Team. We can help them… by dumping ALL BJS core-workload onto them. Anything that isn’t a personal project… farm it out to them… thru DK, if possible. Help grow their harvester. (erf)

[Wingnut]

Can I REALLY wander off-topic here, for a moment?

Let me tell you about my ultimate dream/hope.

I would like Microsoft… in their continued leaning-towards communalism… to sponsor 10 Anti-Economy/Anti-Ownership tour buses… for me to design and manage and “outreach”-with.

But first, before i talk about the buses… let’s drop a paragraph about the new Microsoft Microphone. It is a hand-held microphone… A-2-D onboard… wireless… but it can be dis-assembled and reconfig’d in many ways. It is very beautiful and high-tech-ish. It’s “case area” has a detachable “hand-controller”… with many many buttons… maybe 4 for each finger of a single hand. It is about the size of a Bic lighter. In building this “hidable-in-hand” controller… we invent a new “hand controller protocol”… a “system” for doing single hand controlling of MANY things. Likely, PowerPoint controllers are already nearing this kind of sophistication… I wouldn’t know.

What do I do with this “device”? Trigger the playing-of sound effects with it. Laurel and Hardy, Red Skelton, some comedians of present… have all had EXCELLENT success… doing storytelling or pantomime … with added sound effects. This is for “live-scolding” anti-cap preachers who speak in towns during the road show.

The buses… are a work of wonderment. First, they are a fold-open stage with small-to-medium size sound system… automatically wired (speakers mounted permanently in lower storage compartments of buses.)

Now, about our two primary “speakers”… a male robot called “Bastard” and a quick-change-personality/character LADY robot… called “Bitch”. The primary reason to use simple Muppets-like robots to “preach”… is to absorb bullets from angry capitalists. Naturally, we will also have to check the buses for bombs, and keep the cameras and motion sensors hopping… anytime we’re doing a campground/park musical, comedic, anti-cap rally. These “events” are also “town hall meetings” and we TRY to collect input from audience members… so we can address those deemed-important/pertinent concerns… at future rallies.

We can go “live”… in order to make fun of audience members or do funny things like make Bastard’s head fall-off and be dangling by an electrical cord… etc. Bastard will have a habit of flipping off (giving the finger)… so it would be VERY funny… if occasionally… his hand falls off when trying to flip something off.

Bitch robot… will be “Fox News Expert” or Bastard’s wife, or girlfriend, or prostitute… priest… ANYONE. Bitch is a quick-change Muppet-bot with many outfits, heads, etc.

Most of the “sermons” with be automated. Between shows, we might see Bitch and Bastard automated-dancing somewhat… to the “break music”. LIVE music performance IS a possibility… esp considering Wingnut knows a LITTLE BIT about that skill-set.

I would need Microsoft help to accomplish ALL OF IT… from robot armatures, to programming, to building it into nice tour buses… all of it. I would also like each bus to look VERY happy… ideally… each has a “boiler” to produce steam… and has a steam whistle similar to a Mississippi River boat… announcing the arrival into YOUR town. The bus moves REAL slow as it heads to the park. It is blowing steam and looks like a cross between a circus wagon and a big corn harvester. It plays John Phillips Sousa music as it chugs-along, and we encourage children to “parade” behind the bus (and snort all them delicious bus fumes!) (ok, not that part).

Can ya see it? Can ya picture it? Can ya afford it? heh. Ok, continue-on as normal… Wingy “out” (of his ever-lovin’ mind)

[adam]

Maybe we should have an Off-topic area.

[Wingnut]

I think this is already one, right? The title doesn’t imply any rigid subject-constraints. I think we’re safe, here, as long as the police stay away.

[adam]

Other people might an enjoy and Off-topic area, too.

[Deltakosh]

Like that idea! I can create an off-topic area and move TWC there so others can also start their own off topic threads

[Wingnut]

Not all of TWC is off-topic. What do you propose to do about that? WOn’t work. Can’t categorize TWC as on or off topic… but if you want to force it into a box/categorization, I sure can’t stop you. You’re the boss.

[Deltakosh]

Well this is your place so you decide where to land it

[Wingnut]

Leave it alone, please. Thank you! If you create a sub-group that DOESN’T have “off-topic” in its name, and/or doesn’t imply/infer off-topic-ism… then we can talk more. Okay with everyone?

Update: I see no inbound replies, so I guess everyone (active) is in agreement. Good deal.

Phew… did ya see that? They tried to use a bulldozing… to drag the entire TWC park… to a secluded woods outside the town-lines. Tried to “relocate” the capitalism-mess clean-up team. Gruesome!

SERIOUS inbound attacks! I don’t understand why they reject the truth I speak. Why don’t they thank me for showing Team Igloo all the trouble they caused? hmm.

[adam]

I guess that people can use the Mute feature for this thread if they don’t want to hear about aniti-capitalism rants.

[Wingnut]

You bet. Besides, I have QUIT raking capitalism itself over the coals, and have started pointing-out specific spots where the BJS/capitalism interface… is the most screwed-up and forever-lost if something isn’t done about it RIGHT NOW. Until we find a solve… the war must continue. I suggest you get Mr Gates in here… to give us his “take” on this monster-sized issue.

This is NOT something to “play games” with. This is a serious attack and protection IS needed. The community is under attack, and I’m going to keep trying to defend it. I believe in BJS community. I loved it before it got dirty. I MUST fight for it… no matter how many sticks and stones you guys throw at me.

[Wingnut]

Anyone wanna see WIngy screwing-around with the Babylon song… on his old bent-neck Yamaha acoustic? 416 megs. http://urbanproductions.com/wingy/babylon/vids/BJS_sat_nite.mov

Lyrics: The Wingnut Chronicles post 195.

Sorry for the video size, and sorry I was SO nervous. 2nd video ever on my Ipad. First selfie of ANY kind.

If someone wants to clean it up, re-compress in Handbrake or something… I’ll gladly publish a smaller version at the same URL. It’s public domain, all the way. I screwed up A LOT… but now you can more easily know what Wingnut looks like… so you can find him and run him over for being a jerk.

[nasimiasl]

we need focus on bjs engine not so complicated forum
keep it simple please

[Wingnut]

Yeah naz, the idea of opening another sub-forum for “rattle’n’prattle”… has been decided-against, so far.

All is cool. I’m going back to tech-ville a bit more, anyway. I think I’m kind of fried in the old fix-a-cap dept. If they don’t understand the problems by now, they’re never going to get it.

[Givo]

Sorry nasumiasl, but I have some input for Wingnut.

Hey Wingnut, you could upload it to youtube with the “unlisted” setting. It’s public, but only people with the link can get to it. It’s like “anyone with the link can view” on google docs. Then size wouldn’t matter.

[Wingnut]

Sorry Givo, that requires a YouTube acct, and I’m not “big-on” joining things.

I’m in the witness protection program… can’t let my data get out.

Ok, that’s a big fat lie. How 'bout you do whatever you feel like doing… with that video? Go ahead and publish/move it however you wish. I don’t care about it at all. Have a good time.

[Givo]

Do you have a gmail account? If you do then you can “sign in” to youtube with it. I kinda see what you mean now. You want a gmail, but get gmail (like you wanted), but also get docs, slides, spreadsheet, youtube, and chrome account. Helpful sometimes, but some may not like it. BTW I disabled all tracking settings on my google account. VERY helpful.

[jerome]

excellent show
you’re damn good with a guitar !!!

The “country” version sounds also kinda “bluesy” in my hearphones … like it !

[Wingnut]

Thank you, Jerome… that’s very kind of you. I play better when not so nervous, and I sing much more projected and stoutly… when not surrounded by paper-thin walls to adjacent apartments… with neighbors who already hate me. You play too, yes? Mostly at-home stuff? Ever perform out?

Here, capitalism has pretty much killed the little bit of music performing-in-public (bars). There was SO much ordering happening from money-desperate club owners… break lengths, music types, gaps between songs, crowd-draw, etc. It has gotten very gestapo and full of expectations. Bands/performers now compete with each other for the few performing slots that are available, instead of loving one another and helping each other become successes… like we used-to do. Cut-throat-ism is rampant.

Now I just do donation-jug stuff and private picnics. The tips are often MUCH better than bar-wages, and without all the orders/fun-killing stuff. Picnics/parties are still very loving and it feels like we are playing among friends, because we are.

I’d like to hear you play/sing someday, Jerome. Thanks for being kind to me thru the attempted dirt-cleaning process, too. I’m likely headed-out… removed all links to BJS from my browser start pages, removed all notifies, etc, now. Time to move-on to cleaner grounds, I think. This could be my last post.

If you or any others… frequent/escape-to a non-corporate webGL community, drop me a mail at wingthing @ charter.net - perhaps I’ll come-aboard. This one is DOA. I want to give a tip-of-the-hat to @gryff, too, who saw this happening LONG BEFORE I did, and left quite a while ago… wisely.

Others: Please, NO BJS assistance-requests to that email address, thx. BJS-assistance requests will be ignored/gagged.

Jerome, thanks again for the nice comments… and for the excellent acquaintance-ship/friendship. I learned LOTS from you (hugz)! All of it can transfer to a better webGL community, so none of the wisdom I attained from you… was wasted. Not a drop of it. Wonderful stuff! You’re both a great programmer and a great artist… and a fine acquaintance. Too bad the creeping ooze screwed-up the situation.

Too much reply, eh? Sorry. Note: Using all 7th chords in a country song… gives it that down-home bluesy feel. Bayou blues… taters with the gators… south loooziana-ish crayfish pickin.

See ya 'round, I hope. I’ll be watching for replies here for a while, and might continue posting here, sometimes. But they REALLY wanna shut me up… badly… so… I dunno. I don’t have any say, here, and they want it that way. “muting”? YIKES! Try averting your eyes, rocket-children. * sigh * Just a “junior Eichmann” festival 'round THESE parts - controller/boss wannabes. Sad. Empowerments starvation. But money is the boss, and as long as they keep using it, it will ALWAYS be the boss. No empowerment for them… capitalism wins.

[jerome]

I feel that you need some temporary BJS withdraw in order to think and inspect yourself to understand if and how you should keep on participating or sharing things with the project and with what you feel that the community has become (is this the record of the longest sentence here ?).
Said differently and shortly : like everyone, you’ve got your opinions, political/philosophical/religious opinions. These opinions shape your view of all the events in your life and of all your exchanges with the others, like it’s the case in this forum.
Actually they shape your own personality … like they do for everyone of us. And noone is willing to renounce to what one really is.
Thus, because of them (opinions), you can feel nervous, uncomfortable or sick because your environment (or the perception of it) changes in a way that goes against what you feel right.

Well, in this case, what would I do ?
First, to ensure my own sanity, I would withdraw from the context that causes me the discomfort or the anger. Just to let things cool down in my mind (actually that’s what I did !).
Then, once calmed down, I would not abandon for ever what has given so much fun and joy these last years, but I would look at it from some distance to understand what it is or what it has become really now I’m no longer inside it. Like I would study from outside a new thing.
This calm and this distance helps a lot to understand what makes us uncomfortable or nervous. And it helps also to understand others motivations, behaviors and opinions.

Once I would have understood the reasons of my discomfort from this external point of view and how things and people really interact when I’m not one part of the great clockwork, I would decide if or how I could then act back again in the system without disowning my opinions and where, if any, I could even orientate things or people to join my vision in some parts.
That’s my way of doing. Probably not the best, but it works for me. That’s why I suggested it in my first sentence.

I just sincerely hope you won’t quit just because you feel nervous at this very moment. Just take the time to think about your decision after a beer, some guitar playing near a lake and having pupped your old dog. Of course, you’ve the right to quit but people here, me first, will then miss you so much.
Even, if I also decided to not come here as often as used to in the past.

Many thanks for your kind words.
Too bad, I’m not a musician. I started to learn music and electric piano only some months ago only (I like it so much : a full new universe to discover for me). The good ones are my wife and my son, playing guitar for some years now.

[Wingnut]

Thank you, Jerome, I think that is good advice, and I will do my best to exercise those policies.

Unfortunately… its not just an opinion about capitalism. I got the hard-evidence on the son-of-a-bitch… and I’ve verified and validated it numerous times. I’ve been an anti-cap activist for nearly 30 years… I know that POS caste/slavery-system like the back of my hand. Around age 24, I set-out to determine WHY my father was SO angry SO often. I learned that he was being terrorized by a capitalism invention called “cost-of-living” (a survival-supply blockading-system using locks/gates called “price tags”)… and I’ve been out to destroy it ever since.

The BJS hayride is headed right down the center-line of Capitalism Boulevard, and it’s stuck there. I can TRY to somehow “come to reckoning” with it, but it won’t work. I’ve tried to “swallow” “waivers” and “allowances” for it, in other aspects of my life… always failing… because the hard-evidence and EASILY SEEN currently-witnessed happenings… keep blowing-apart those self-lies.

Truth is, capitalism is a rotten, disgusting, immoral system, and no matter HOW I try to doctor it up with make-up and nylons and lipstick and perfume, it’s still disgusting. Frosting on a dog-stool !== sweet-roll. I’ve tried the “paint-up” many many times, J. It NEVER works. The gathered evidence and currently-seen state-of-affairs… EASILY blows-off any self-lies paint-job that I try to self-fool myself-with. All investigated pro-capitalism stances… can be EASILY shot full of holes and its credibility collapses like wet cardboard. Been there, done it… a hundred times.

These kids around this forum… they don’t realize I’m a kick-ass long-time capitalism investigator. I got no creds with them, and they are face-down in the pile of capitalism’s highly-addictive “snort”. These guys aren’t going to budge from that addiction. They got that teddy bear hugged MUCH too tightly for any budging. Dynamite, crowbars, jaws-of-life… we “cleans” are rarely able to loosen that hug. Seen it over and over. They’re well-addicted to pyramiding. Sad. Embarrassing. Anti-Christian to the gills.

Capitalism - The false-idol wars and forsake-a-thon! YEEE HA! Ride 'em cowboys.

sigh (hug) (I think it was a MARVELOUS well-orchestrated rally, don’t you? Wingy self-pats.)

[nasimiasl]

is it bad some one just understand code and don’t know a lot about human languages
@Wingnut if you wanna make new wingy blog ( or site ) i can help you
i am sure a lot people wanna access to your demo links

[Wingnut]

Thanks naz! Very kind of you! I think maybe… anti-cap more important than 3D now. Lots of children starving/sick, lots of adults scared/angry, lots of planet resources stressed/damaged. Self must weigh priorities… make decision. Perhaps not proper time for Wingnut to have fun with 3d.

I have little github website… https://wingnutt.github.io

Can also search for “Mothers Against Stuff That Ain’t Right” (MaStars). I am nearby on the planet SOMEWHERE… until I get killed.

[Necips]

Perhaps not proper time for Wingnut to have fun with 3d

It’s just the right time to create joy. The outside is only a projection of your inner world… and if you feel joy inside, what will sooner or later become visible outside?!

Mirror laws

[Wingnut]

OR… not giving a crap about dying babies… if it happens more than 30 feet from your family-unto-selves pup-tent-o-competing… is blatant forsaking of fellow man… and your after-life is gonna suck BIG TIME if you continue doing that. Who knows, huh?

I’m not willing to take the risk. The dying baby is a higher priority, whether all of reality is a fantasy, a reflection, or any other method. No matter WHAT the structure… getting food to the dying baby, and getting folks to stop being angry with each other and sanctioning each other, and getting a less-wasteful higher-quality foods/products/services operation happening… is the logical and natural top-priority. your morals may vary.

[jerome]

Our beds are burning since '87 at least YouTube …
We didn’t do much so far to extinguish that fire

[jerome]

To develop a bit more about this topic (off-BJS … I know, sorry), I can share some of your arguments, Wingy, because I read and studied a lot about global climate warming these last months (scientific papers and projections).
I also think it’s time to re-order some personal priorities. I still will going to play here and there with 3D just for fun from time to time, but I intend to dedicate now most of my time and my energy to help to save whatever can be at my little scale …
Just a matter of personal duty. I don’t want to regret later to have done nothing when it was still time.
I don’t care about the money or the gratefulness. I’ve got enough to live decently and don’t need more.
And money can’t be eaten anyway…

About money, simply remember that if you were born the same day than Jesus (I choose this one because he’s widely famous), if you were immortal and if you had spent $1000 every day of your long life until today, you still wouldn’t have spent $1 billion.
=> 2019 x 365 x 1000 is less than 750 millions.

Some people (they are even more numerous each year) have dozens or hundreds billions in their wallets. Too bad they prefer go on working and earning even more (why ? when you’ll never be able to use your money in a lifetime… this sounds insane) rather than saving the planet with the power of their wealth.
Those are their choices.

I did my own at my little scale.

[withADoveInOneHand]

utopianism

[withADoveInOneHand]

by labeling you i reduce you

[Wingnut]

Hey, look at YOU go. You’re quite the labeler! (pat pat) Nobody can say that YOU aren’t really something.

If you’re calling/labeling the earlier-proposed Team Earth… “utopia”… then I take that as a super-nice compliment, thanks! Very kind and wise of ya!

Team Earth will NOT be utopian, but instead, will take a lot of hard work and dedication. It will FEEL like utopia, compared to the current warring-over money/ownership, though.

In general, you’ll need a little more reducing impact/power than name-calling. The Team Earth proposal has received reducing-attempts from “the best” reduction-attempters. It’s held-up perfectly fine to all scrutiny, so far. “Bad Apples” are the only real threat, and that can be fixed… in Team Earth prison-schools and thru wiser parenting/integrity-dev.

The current “Switch To Moneyless/Ownerless Team Earth” planning team… is looking carefully at the issue of boyfriend/girlfriend jealousies and animosities (pee-pee tug-o-wars). Although this problem is rampant under capitalism, it might be substantial within Team Earth ops, too. We could use ALL THE HELP WE CAN GET on this topic. Current policies… revolve around self-less-ness (altruism), as-defined within an OLD “scratch document” that I authored long-ago… Rules for Considerate Dating.

My advice to you: AT LEAST use sticks and stones to attempt reductions.

THE BEST reducer… is proving me wrong on anything I’ve said, which you won’t be able to do. I’ve been at this for too long, son. I got the evidence on capitalism, and it’s goin’ down… either with my help, or due to top-heavy collapsing from its own weight.

We “utopians” will be laughing heartily at the collapse and carnage… but us non-pyramiders are all solid Christian hippy do-gooders, and will help rescue and bandage the victims of the pyramid collapse. Are ya ready? She’s crumbling pretty bad at the base, and lots of US-US wars are happening… between various factions near the top of the pyramid.

Say goodbye to it… give it one last hug before it topples. CYA, capitalism. There’s definitiely a slowly surging worldwide movement seen… to “take 'er down”. YAY! Our competition-addicted friends are all slowly waking-up. We “cleans” welcome them back from their handed-down traditions and addiction… with hugs and greetings.

Cooperation is the exact opposite of competing. In the end, cooperation will ALWAYS win, which is very strange… because cooperation doesn’t compete for wins/losses.

Perceptive investigators may have seen Wingnut recently struggle-with his friend @Givo’s robot competition. The “tourney” was about 50-50 mix of competition and cooperation. THAT kind of competition is the ONLY type of competition encouraged in Team Earth. One must… AT LEAST… hope-for/push-for victory for the OTHER TEAM… as much as one’s OWN team. Cooperative competing is odd. Love must come first… always. Winners should TRY to ensure that losers have AS MUCH or MORE victory celebration fun… than they (winners) themselves do. Integrity Dev 101

[Wingnut]

Aw heck, let’s talk about THE BIGGEST potential problem that COULD happen during the “installing” of Team Earth ops.

Team Earth is a type of imperialism/empire. Ideally, every nation, every county, every family, every person… should be-in-agreement… that Team Earth ops… is the correct and more-fair way-of-operating. Everyone is a member of Team Earth gov. Everyone has a say, and each is weighed/considered for wisdom and logic.

There will be no more borders and no more ownership. Anyone can move into ‘your’ house and use ‘your’ car… because Team Earth items… belong to NOBODY. Ownership will be deemed illegal and illogical, but “C&S” (custodianship/stewardship) will still be in the process of activation. We’ll quickly be inventorying/locating every single item on the planet… adding a TE stock number to most items, and logging them into the Team Earth supplies-division computers (the repository). EZ-scan microchips within ID “stickers” may assist in that.

This part of the conversion… the opening of all borders… the “imposing” of Team Earth rules/policies/wisdom upon cultures who are perhaps not quite ready-for or accepting-of such love-one-another policies… could be a volatile-to-violence time… during the conversion attempt.

I think plenty of pre-planning pre-intentions discussions… between/across ALL nations and cultures… can “smooth” this potential bump-in-the-road. The powerful people… the stars… the respected ones… will need to be in the streets… assuring everyone that there will be plenty for all… if we all stop tug-o-warring and start adopting one another like pets… with love. The powerful sweethearts… such as Bill Gates and Deltakosh… can help us keep this potential wash-out hazard in the roadway… well-reinforced and black-topped smooth.

Earth materials all. Nothing CAN be legally owned… no one consulted initial owners/creators. Gotta cope with that fact. Help us design the new C&S division of Team Supplies… hurry… to prevent wash-out.

[adam]

What would you like DK to do to save all of us?

[Wingnut]

Did you mean… after the decision to proceed with Operation Team Earth, but during the rough-water installing-problem as described above?

Or what could he do to help with it… right now?

Right now… same thing as requested before. Make sure Bill Gates reads “the rally”… including most-recent posts. Then see if we can get an understanding/agreement of/to mymymy claims, and try to get the “hands off BJS” promise for DK and the 7 Dwarfs.

Then, learn from Mr Gates… HOW CLOSE MS is… to going “more commune”… and then hope-for the 10 tour-buses dream to come true. AND… give Mr.Gates/MS the MS Microphone idea and let him run-with-it as-if HE invented it. (I don’t claim ownership, for the most-part, duh.)

But DK already told me in PM… that he has little/no contact with Mr. Gates, and DK didn’t sound overly-excited to SEEK contact with Mr. Gates. DK suggested contacting “Bill” via the Gates Foundation. When I emailed Mr. Glen Weyl… who is a Microsoft-sponsored “we need to change our economy/ownership system” book-tour guy… giving him the address to our rally, and a few other friendly words… I CC’d to bill.gates at ms foundation. Bill and Glen have been given the opportunity to read-along and make a comment if they wish-to. We welcome it. I hope he/they are lurking with us… I’d LOVE to meet him/them… and talk for a few minutes. (sigh) (drool).

I wouldn’t mind meeting DK and other igloos and non-igloos, too… but I cannot afford the trip or hotels involved in getting there.

AND… to “vote on” get-togethers in front of poor people and third world country people who haven’t the opportunity to visit “the picnic”… is disgusting decadence. Ya’ll should be ashamed of yourselves for doing that.

[Wingnut]

Deltakosh is actually very close-to Bill Gates… without knowing it.

First… they both appear to be sweethearts… so an easy friendship between the two… is ALMOST guaranteed… should the oppor-tuna-casserole ever present itself.

BJS… is actually the #1 “seed” (I’m using Givo-talk, here)… and MS is likely to be going BERSERK for 3d… at any moment. Again, they will have a HUGE market in AR sunglasses and stick-on solar-power AR transceivers that we stick to everything on the entire planet… to make our MS AR Sunglasses… “come alive” (when AR transceiver-items are in-view). Anyway, that’s later. BJS will be used for that.

But here’s the important thing. Bill Gates still “got game”… and we WANT him involved in the new 3D surge… cuz he’s an excellent “idea guy”… always HAS been. So, whether he’s retired or not… we need his brains… and ESP his heart… as we commune-up. I hope Bill will help me and other team members… work on our 10 buses and the substantial robots control systems involved in each one. YUM! (droooooooool)

This is also why I drool over “House on the Rock” in Spring Green Wisconsin. It is a anima-pneumatics wonderland, which needs converting to anima-tronics. I would LOVE for House on the Rock (HOR)… to be purchased by Microsoft… and given as a gift/classroom… to the University of Wisconsin Robotics division… but shared by all other robotics programs worldwide, as well. UW just “custodians” it. If you’ve never been to House on the Rock… GO. It’ll take all day to see SOME of it. Prepare for high-drooling.

Yep… Bill and DK… easily good friends and useful partners as we wander into the soon-to-be-supercharged era of 3D. YAY!

[Wingnut]

Hi gang. Here’s another warning about a subject… that Jerome pointed-out to me in PM, once upon a time. I will restate it here, without his permission. (He is very forgiving of such things, and is deeply-smart… on multiple “facets”. I’m proud and honored to know him a tiny bit.)

Hey Jerome… wha-da-ya-think of the name UVs? Union of Volunteers.

UV’s vs. The Igloo… The Melting! (a movie?) Anywhy… back on-subject…

The definitions… of terms/phrases like “community” and “our friends” and “the public”… are MUCH different inside Team Igloo. (Much different from defs we “cleans” are expecting/assuming.)

Inside the igloo, “community” includes “business partners”. Golf, fine dining, resort vacations, theater tickets, and other “schmoozing activities” MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED between DK/7D… and these “bizzyness partners”. Yikes! The entire Igloo Team… is subject-to these “schmooze-influences”.

So, when DK or another MS-employed-for-BJS… says something like “the community requested that change”… it COULD mean… “one of our corporate/bizzyness partners requested that change”.

Pures/volunteers… watch-out for those definition distortions. You’ve been warned. It is almost sure to happen. Watch for MANY other distorted definitions/assumed-meanings… as well. “Business partners” are VERY powerful influences over/for Team Igloo.

Busyness partners will get the most say/power of ANY “community member”. This happens, likely, simply from old, stale… “biz-habits” and via yet another kind of forsaking of the little guy… by money.

As they say, “money talks, ants get squished.”

Errr… that’s not quite how the adage goes… but it is similar. Wingy out.

[Wingnut]

Entrenchment: Wouldn’t it be interesting… to know the hire-dates of all Team Igloo members?

I wonder if the NEWEST members… are the ones most-pushing for a meet-up.

It is likely that the newest members… want to “entrench”… for max job-security. So they would be the ones most likely to TRY to “befriend” DK and his wife and daughter… to “get personal”… possibly be called “Uncle Whatever” by DK’s daughter. “familiar (family-ar) affection”… good entrenchment tactic.

But DK… needs to keep the dwarfs “at arms length”, in case he needs to fire/terminate them, later.

It’s a real interesting situation. Jockeying and entrenching - another type of “schmooze-influencing”.

Essentially, a great compete-to-entrench “puppet show” will likely happen… for DK’s daughter’s affection and for DK’s wife’s approval (at the meetup). It should be a pretty good show. I hope we get it on video.

[Wingnut]

Didja notice… that the meet-up… was “mixed-with” Q/A (questions and answers)?

Do you see how this “assumes” that Dk/7d are somehow “authorities” about the “steering” of BJS?

But really, the UV’s (Union of Volunteers) are THE authority on the community. Many of us have been involved in BJS much longer than the paid dwarfs. So, the UV’s are the authority at the meet-up, and community-wide. The dwarfs have the potential of being driven-by-cash, and thus… will be required-to earn’n’deserve the right (for MORE time-span than required-of a UV)… to be positioned as authority figures. They’re just too new… and too untested. Not yet much trust earned’n’deserved. They are much too “broke” in THAT dept… to do much trust “affording”. It’s nothing personal. Capitalism participants have been seen being totally decadent and disgusting WORLDWIDE… and Team Igloo has to counter-battle that bad reputation. That’s just the way it is, and the way it has to be, and the way it will stay… sorry gang. Competers_church.org has a TERRIBLE reputation, world-wide. Not my fault.

Q/A? You bet. It is a chance for Team Igloo to ask us well-experienced and well-respected UV’s… about the expected integrity and etiquette that MUST be exercised/maintained in BJS-land. It is a chance for the dwarfs… to find out what is expected of them… especially morals-wise. They WILL exercise the quality of integrity that has been WELL-ESTABLISHED around here for 5+ years… OR ELSE the UV’s are going to fire/terminate them.

DOES the “community” (the REAL community… the UV’s)… have “the say” to ban/fire a paid dwarf?

We SHOULD, if this is a fair community.

UV’s… DO NOT “hand-over your power” to a Team Igloo member… before you have THOROUGHLY examined their intestinal fortitude (integrity, morals, honesty, clear-thinking, cap-influencings, etc.) Push the integrity measuring-stick… down their throats, into their ears and noses, up their butts, into any other available holes, and study your findings… VERY carefully. Feel free to seriously interrogate them… whenever you get the chance. Try to get a morals-compass reading on each one, and don’t be fooled by fake readings and/or “lip-service”. NEVER lower/remove a “watch 'em camera”… just because one of them TELLS you “they care” (like the PR video tried).

All in all, cleans… keep FULL cameras and spying active on ALL paids… for at least 3 years, or until they can be trusted… by proving themselves worthy of holding-onto integrity. Watch every single move they make… and be ON THEIR ASSES about morals/integrity… CONTINUOUSLY.

Again, no accusations… but they were stupid enough to join capitalism, so they could EASILY be stupid enough to ATTEMPT all sorts of slimy maneuvers. (okay, okay, maybe they were FORCED to join capitalism, I wouldn’t know, not without further investigation.) Watch 'em, cleans/pures. Watch 'em carefully. They’ll appreciate all that loving attention.

Again, again, again, and once more… I’m NOT making any accusations. But the capitalism-driven “framework” that was formed 2 years ago… is HIGHLY conducive to all sorts of shyster-ism. Cover your asses, cleans! Watch 'em.

I really wish I could take a break from having to do all these warnings. I could use some help from fellow UV’s… pointing-out the plethora of trouble-spots that Team Igloo has caused. But I suppose… not many UV’s are trained in cap-control ops… as much as I am.

Watch 'em closely. Wear a helmet… they are POTENTIALLY VERY DANGEROUS! SOME have shown some integrity… but only introductory-level integrity. They got 3-4 more years of proving themselves worthy of being members of our community, and ESPECIALLY being members of the steering committee (Team Igloo). DK does NOT have the time or facilities to meticulously screen and vet (investigate/scrutinize) the dwarfs. We UV’s MUST do it with our cameras and our spying-for-good’n’right-ness.

Look around. We have a MASSIVE troop of UV’s who have proven their wisdom and integrity FOR YEARS! THESE people are OUR “steering committee”, and they are MUCH MORE proven and trustworthy then the dwarfs of Team Igloo. ONLY hand-away your power/decision-making… to PROVEN authorities, and it might be wise to “Stay UV-ONLY” for a while… while the dwarfs attempt to prove themselves worthy-of authority positions… for 3+ years. Be wise, UV’s.

They’re probably wanting to “hold/throw” this meet-up… near their familiar war-grounds of Redmond. They (Team Igloo underlings/dwarfs) will likely be trying to get wives/kids to become best-friends with other wives/kids (entrenchment ops). We UV’s are behind-the-8-ball, affordability-wise, and will likely have low-attendance due to this cost-of-living-brand money-rationing (spoken-of earlier).

The Redmond Dwarfs don’t need to deal with this. They are (likely) in-town, a few miles from the meet-up, at-most. This is why they can “afford” to bring family members, too. It’s REALLY more of a BJS Inc. corporate picnic, at least in THEIR eyes/attitude.

So, they are likely to TRY a “railroading”… attempting to place themselves into the authority or “star” roles (via positional-jockeying). Even if only a few of us UV’s manage to attend… PLEASE TRY to remove the dwarfs from all attempted authority-role self-emplacements. Don’t be afraid AT ALL… of “taking them down off their high-horses”. They are capitalists. They will TRY, by pure programming/habit… to gather empowerment and entrenchment (often via family-ar schmoozing ops, but ALSO, OFTEN, by positional-jockeying and assuming authority roles without warrant/justification/investigation).

UV’s… it is illegal to use baseball bats to de-throne “iggs” from their deluded power-trips (if seen/found). You’ll need to use a different method to take them down, and put them in their proper (earned and deserved) place. UV’s… please DO NOT use ANY violence AT ALL… for de-powering a head-strong dwarf or dwarf-sympathizer. That is NOT the good’n’right way to return a head-in-the-clouds empowerment junkie… back to Earth/ground/egalitarian levels.

Remember that caps are often “drunk” or “stoned” on money/empowerment “snort”. Be loving to them… they often know-not what they joined, know-not what they have morally-condoned, know-not what they were handed by their parents/kin, and know-not what they hand-down-as-traditions/values to THEIR kids. The lost… are STILL worth hugging and caring-for. They CAN be rescued.

Wingy out… probably about to be censored again.

UPDATE: I just learned that these “meet-ups” are often coding/programming-based, and NOT a picnic where one might bring kin or grill burgers or toss frisbees. My mistake.

[JohnK]

After much thought and personal deliberation I regret I have become tired of your continued ranting, name calling and attempts at division.
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--7EE3U59R--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/kmekc3hllxpgjts5yncg.jpg.

It is time, I think, for you to take the light of your message and form a BabylonJS community of your own, along the lines you want. Since BJS is open source and given the general level of expertise there must be among users other than the core team it must be perfectly possible, with enough interest, to set up a fork and develop an alternative breakaway group.

As I have been reading your message and there is nothing you can say to change my mind it is with sadness I now add you as the first on my ignore list.

[Wingnut]

Yay John, freely exercising his right to look-away. Ya can’t ask for better than that, eh? Freedom is good.

Most look-aways simply don’t click on the TWC icon… but whatever works for John… YAY! (Wingy hugs JK, whether he’s angry with Wingy or not).

Save 100,000 babies… OR make John King and 4 of his ego-centric likers… happy ? hmm.

Not much of a decision needed, there. The priorities are clear and obvious.

[Wingnut]

Ok… we got some real weak news on a fuzzy radio transmission… from the peace talks. There is SOME indications… that the Chief of Team Igloo… MIGHT come to the negotiating table. There’s been some back-room discussions… that have been fruitful (at least in OUR UV opinion).

Naturally we UV’s will still have some “requirements” needing to be met… before any armistice can be agreed-upon. We’re going to be calling for NO MORE “business as usual” from Team Igloo. It has not been carefully defined as-to WHAT “business as usual” IS… but… current thinking… if you see it ANYWHERE within the BJS cow-moo-nity… you can shoot it. ALRIGHT!

Sigh. Ok, last tip for UV’s… hopefully. Spying.

I propose a “spy-der” app that keeps an eye on all paid dwarfs, called Santa Claws (very sharp claws, btw). It monitors all paids… everything they say, everything they touch, and tells us UV’s when they’ve been naughty, and when they’ve been nice.

Perhaps too imposing a system… to propose at the negotiating table (if one happens).

Just like my friend Assange… we UV’s KNOW that the WhiteHouse ( The Igloo )… is wiki-leaky. Try to get the dwarfs to engage in conversation… spill their beans about ANY Team Igloo projects that THEY are currently excited-about. Inside that blabbering… is GOLD!

UV’s can learn about MANY “secret” happenings inside the Igloo… with leak-watching. It may be your ONLY source of unbiased/clean news… from inside the WhiteHouse igloo. Disseminate ANY leaked data you can… ALL OVER THE FORUM. Hand it out to EVERYONE who is willing to publish it. Get “the word” out there… full sprinkler systems. And OF COURSE, pass it to the underground.

Also TRY to determine WHO and WHAT is a “business partner”… ALWAYS. When you discover one… ya GOTTA do an integrity check on ALL members of that “point of BJS contact”… full blown. Check 'em up the butt, down the throat, ears-noses-more… get morals-compass reading on them. Remember that they are CAP… which means 3+ years of vetting-time… before they are to be fully trusted for having intestinal fortitude (required for authority/tribal-elder roles).

Also remember that caps DO NOT check integrity AT ALL… before making bizzyness “deals” with bizzyness partners. NOT A BIT! They’ll “buy-into” ANYTHING… due to lack of investigation/vetting. Watch 'em. Fully broadcast/pass-along all reputational metadata… regarding bizzyness contacts who have made “deals” with Team Igloo. If they refuse to expose/go-transparent… CAN 'em, dissolve the contact, they aren’t trustworthy. NEVER trust a non-transparent bizzyness partner/contact.

Hopefully, there will be more talk-of WHAT “business as usual” IS… soon. We UV’s are hoping to get our fair rights back… and that is SUPER good news. Keep in mind… THEY invaded us, and we DID NOT invade them. BUT… it appears that it MIGHT have been “an occupation” that they ASSUMED nobody would “mind”, but they were mistaken. (an unintentional invasion … possibly a poorly transmitted “announcing an occupation” news-source, and definitely a lack of voting to allow/dis-allow capitalism fundamentalists to enter/occupy BJS lands.)

Party on! (fingers crossed)